ShadowsDad
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None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Aug 24, 2014 10:13:29 GMT -6
Tomorrow my wet or dry papers will supposedly be delivered. Yesterday I picked up piece of 1/2" "float" glass as the base of the Scary Sharp system. So next time I get some time I'll work on that blade that had the chunks taken out of the cutting edge.
The B&L glass arrived the other day and it appears to be far superior to the triplet 10x loupe I had been using.
For those folks reading this and wondering why I didn't just go with stones for the Rolls, the scary sharp system is easily used to sharpen anything. I can use it for kitchen blades, out in the shop for chisels, whatever. It won't sharpen serrated knives, but then what really does? It's supposed to be very fast too.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Aug 27, 2014 1:26:13 GMT -6
I finally received the rest of what I need for the "Scary Sharp" system that I intend to use to sharpen my dull blade(s), so what I need is complete. (google "scary sharp sharpening" for details)
For those folks actually keeping track (not all arrived today):
B&L 20x loupe (it's amazing what can be seen at just 20x by using reflected light)
a piece of 1/2" thick float glass. Due to a mix up I got a piece that was 12"x12" for the same price ($15) as the 10 x12 piece I wanted.
All abrasives are through a google search. All of the first list are through Amazon.
Silicon Carbide abrasive papers in the following grits: 800 (22u) 1000 (18u) 1500 (13u) 2000 (10u) 2500 (8u) p3000 (7u) p4000 (6u ?) p5000 (5u) 6000 - Marcus thinks the Rolls hone is about 6k. It may turn out that that I ultimately won't even use it. I intend to evaluate the scratches it produces in the sharpening process with the B&L loupe before and after.
And in lapping films (AlOx?): 3u (pink) 1u (lt green) .3u (white)
If this wasn't interesting I wouldn't have spent the $ . But I'm adding another piece of DIY info' to my skill set and learning a great deal in the process.
When I get some wet weather (tomorrow?) I plan to review the scary sharp method and sharpen the dull blade that has the microscopic chips taken out of the edge, after I basically make it even duller.
But at the moment I'm using the 2nd blade Marcus honed for me. After 4 (?) shaves and a mess of stropping on FeOx the shave progresses from harsh to quite comfortable, and the BBS becomes easier to achieve. Right now I have 4 shaves on it I think, and it's really good right now. Under even 10x using reflected light the primary and secondary bevels are quite easy to see. The primary bevel has easy to see scratches and the secondary bevel has a mirror polish.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Aug 27, 2014 23:48:03 GMT -6
Tonight I used the Scary Sharp system to sharpen the knives in the house to get a feel for it. WOW! Does it ever cut quickly! Set the bevel with the 800 grit and use the rest to refine and polish the edge. Of course I didn't use the really fine grits for the kitchen and hunting knives. I stopped at 2500 grit with most, but I won't go that fine next time; I'll probably stop at 1500 grit. That grit gave a sharp yet "grabby" edge. I think going further polished it too much.
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Post by mjclark on Aug 28, 2014 0:33:03 GMT -6
Superb Brian! I found the concept of an edge being too sharp, especially on a razor, difficult to comprehend until I'd experienced it myself. It's said that you can get a decent shave from 8k so everything beyond that is a refinement, and that's where the fun begins!
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RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Aug 28, 2014 21:42:08 GMT -6
Looking forward to your further adventures on this one ShadowsDad.
It is good to hear that the blades Marcus honed for you are performing well.
Great stuff!
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Aug 29, 2014 12:36:39 GMT -6
I'm now on the second blade and so far I've gotten 6 shaves out of it. The real test will come when I finally decide to sharpen the 1 dull blade.
FWIW, I want to remind folks that when this began we wanted to see if the Rolls could be maintained with just minimal gear for blade maintenance. The scary sharp hardware was purchased because I got a bug, and decided I wanted to learn to hone blades. It would be less expensive (IMO) when one gets a bum blade, to just sell it with the provision that one gives full disclosure, or just get it honed. Of course if one has the gear, IF we can't shave with a blade indefinitely, it would soon pay for itself in shipping costs alone. Being able to use the scary sharp hardware for other things just makes the payback that much sooner.
I warned the wife about the scary sharp knives yesterday, and she had occasion to cut a very dense cabbage. Normally she can't cut that, and calls me. Yesterday she sliced right through the veg'. She's a believer.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Sept 1, 2014 12:39:58 GMT -6
Today was the day I honed the dull blade. It had pieces missing from the cutting edge if you remember. Marcus suggested I use a sawing action on some abrasive paper to remove any other pieces that might be thinking of breaking off. After that I started the scary sharp method with 800 grit paper, then 100, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000 (7u), 4000 (6u), 5000 (5u?), then 3u, 1u. I'll finish it up with some 1u lapping film on a stone in the Rolls case, then strop it with some .25u diamond and finish it with .3u FeOx.
The reason I checked it with the loupe is that I'm still not experienced with the scary sharp progression, so I wanted to be sure I was making enough passes with each grade. The coarse grades can be felt to cut, the finer grades not at all really. The 800 grit was used to set the bevel and I used it enough to make the cutting edge come to a cutting edge. Remember, I ran it over some 600 grit paper. I didn't count the strokes, but I could easily se by naked eye when it was sharp. The other grades used quite a bit fewer strokes until I got to the really fine grades, then I used 10 strokes. It took much longer to take the paper out and put it away than it took to actually hone the blade. Of course all of this is BS if it won't shave when I'm done.
I have high hopes for this blade. I didn't check it with the 20x glass after each step, but clearly the scratches from the previous paper was being removed as I moved up the fineness scale. The edge is a thing of beauty right now, but I want to put that secondary bevel on it and that edge will be mirror like though very narrow. When I finished I coated it with some Renaissance Wax (TM) to keep rust away.
FWIW, the scary sharp method is extremely easy to do. The only problem I found was with the polyester lapping films and some sort of dust or something under the film but above the glass plate; it came with the film. It was quite noticeable while honing, almost impossible to feel by hand. Next time I'll wash the film with a detergent wash and rinse with a water spray. Live and learn.
Edit, after tonight's shave:
OK, I officially own the Rolls Razor! I don't mean having only paid for one, but I can bring a blade back from the dull. The sort of ownership that really makes it mine. I honed the blade today and I thought it looked good under the 20x loupe. What I saw wasn't a lie. Tonight's shave was absolutely the most comfortable and the easiest BBS I've gotten with the Rolls to date. I'm really tickled about this.
OK, after doing the above scary sharp routine I had a blade almost ready to use. I never used the Rolls hone at all except as a base plate for 1u lapping film adhered to the hone by a very thin coat of petroleum jelly. I gave it 50 strokes on that 1u lapping film in the Rolls case, then 50 strokes on a .25u diamond treated strop, then 100 strokes on a .3u FeOx treated strop. Put some Renaissance Wax on it to prevent rust, and used it tonight. The result was a fantastic shave.
Thanks for being my guide and mentor Marcus! We achieved success of a sort but not precisely what we were aiming for. I'm still going to try to maintain this blade using only the strops to see how many shaves I can get from it before it needs honing again. That was the original goal. But we do know that anyone can maintain the Rolls at this point; and do it with "sandpaper" and a piece of glass. That's taking it from dull to shave ready. There's a lot of shaving in a Rolls blade.
I also got a great way to sharpen kitchen and hunting knives and shop tools out of learning this. It was one heck of a bargain and definitely worth the price of admission.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Sept 24, 2014 23:19:18 GMT -6
Tonight's shave was #8 on the current honing and the blade is giving an easy BBS. I've been examining it under 20x reflected light and it's still a thing of beauty.
Editted so as not to bring it to the top, but to record the event.
Tonight was shave #11 on this self honed blade.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Oct 15, 2014 22:56:38 GMT -6
Well, here I am , 18 shaves in on the current blade. The very same blade that gave me such problems previously and that I rehoned at 18 shaves in on an earlier life. It was "broken back" to remove the bad metal, and rehoned. The only maintenance that has been done on it has been 25 strokes on the FeOx treated strop, then rotate the blade on the stud, and another 25 strokes. That after every shave. Then reapply Renaissance Wax to protect the cutting edge from moisture.
I've almost succumbed to the temptation to touch up the edge on the hone with some 1u or .3u lapping film in search of an even sharper edge, but I've resisted so far. That would ruin the data collection. After all, the goal here is to see if the Rolls can be maintained with simple gear and not much of it. (honing being the exception)
So a reassessment of the Rolls shaves might be in order. Using the Rolls requires a different technique than a disposable bladed razor. The Rolls is sharp but in a different way. I find a "stiff finger" approach needs to be taken with the Rolls. There is more resistance of the blade by the whiskers and in order to plow through them more force must be applied. Not pressure against the skin, but force in the direction of blade travel to slice through the whiskers. The shave angle of the blade is quite similar to what is used with a SE razor. Much of the sound effects are gone, but not all.
I have more data to collect, but if I only get 18 shaves per honing I suspect that one Rolls blade will last at least most of a lifetime of shaving. I suspect 18 shaves per honing is just the beginning though. When I began this Rolls journey Marcus had the suspicion, and now I do also, that the Rolls can be maintained indefinitely with only a FeOx treated strop. The blade that I'm presently using was (I hope) a fluke in that the metal was rotten in some way initially and had to be broken back to get away from the bad metal and back to the good.
I've been checking the edge using reflected light and a B&L 25x (20x?) loupe and I have no idea if I'm getting better with it to better see edge irregularities or if I'm seeing mirages. But I seem to be seeing tiny imperfections in the edge. Were they there after the initial honing? Maybe. One blade is quite a few blades short of final data in my mind so I'm only mentioning it and not stating anything categorically. There simply isn't enough data. The edge imperfections are there yet the blade continues to give me easy BBS shaves. Maybe I need to sweat the small stuff a bit less, but in the interest of complete data I can't. This same simple gear can be purchased and used by anyone and will give information about the edge they shave with. The other method of "data collection" would be to use the blade until it doesn't shave any longer and guess about what is required to bring it back. I hate guessing; guessing isn't data, guessing is chaos.
But anyway, still collecting data on this blade and I've gone past the previous record of mine with it and it's still going strong. If this was the only razor I had for life I could very easily use it. That's the short story. Of course disposable blade razors are seductive due to the no maintenance requirement and they'll always have a place in my cabinet. They all will.
Still collecting data on the Rolls.
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Post by PJGH on Oct 16, 2014 0:26:21 GMT -6
Taking inspiration from Darwin, how appear to use modified Rolls Razor blades, their strop of double-sided and labelled Fine/Course (IIRC). In their sales literature, they show the strop paste, which we have now worked out to be FeOx and CrOx. I that right, Marcus?
Rolls Razor themselves had just one strop paste, which appears to be FeOx.
I wonder whether gaining a second strop plate with CrOx would be a nice setup for more general maintenance.
Inspiring stuff. I really should use my Rolls Razor more often - I have a couple: one mint and one "modernised" by Marcus.
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Post by mjclark on Oct 17, 2014 0:15:32 GMT -6
Wow Brian, 18 shaves is a real success for this new system For sure the Rolls Renaissance continues! The original Darwin set up was (as confirmed from a NOS set) chromium oxide for the coarse side and ferric oxide for the fine side. And we've confirmed by personal experience that the original Rolls strop paste was ferric oxide. I like your thinking Paul - I'll paint a Rolls hone with chromium oxide acrylic then stick it in a stropping case side... ...I've also soaked a Rolls hone in vaseline, as this was a recommendation to refine barber hones. Although lapping film on the hone definitely works it does give an initially harsh edge. It will be very interesting to see how the chromium oxide stropping and vaseline honing compare.
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Post by mjclark on Oct 17, 2014 18:27:33 GMT -6
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RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Oct 17, 2014 19:28:07 GMT -6
What is that acrylic product MJ?
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RocketMan
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Welcome To The Sharp Side!
Posts: 4,167
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Post by RocketMan on Oct 17, 2014 19:31:18 GMT -6
Wow Brian, 18 shaves is a real success for this new system For sure the Rolls Renaissance continues! The original Darwin set up was (as confirmed from a NOS set) chromium oxide for the coarse side and ferric oxide for the fine side. And we've confirmed by personal experience that the original Rolls strop paste was ferric oxide. How did you decide there was nothing else in these products? It is entirely possible that there are even significant additives. I would agree from the colors of the paste crayons that there likely is ferric and crox in the Darwin conditioners, but it seems difficult to say much else. .??
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Post by mjclark on Oct 17, 2014 20:08:04 GMT -6
The acrylic is Reeves Chromium Oxide Green which gives great results for stropping with my straights. Any good artists' acrylic will do. The acrylic makes a superb binder for the chromium oxide particles. I apply two coats to balsa or in this case a Rolls hone, leaving 48 hours for each coat to cure then lap it with 800 w/d paper and it's good to go.
And you're right that there may be other products in the OEM strop pastes but they will surely be conditioners for the leather. We already know that feox in mineral oil works superbly on the Rolls strop, just as good as the original Rolls paste although that smells as if it contains a solvent or volatile component.
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