ShadowsDad
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None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
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Post by ShadowsDad on Oct 17, 2014 22:12:37 GMT -6
Thanks Marcus! The difference before and now is that I really don't see any end in sight. I'm getting shaves that are just as good now as I did 4 shaves after freshly honing the blade.
I'm very curious to see how this CrOx experiment works out. I might never try it but I find it interesting none the less. I have my hands full enough with what I'm doing with the lapping films. Yes, it's harsh initially, but after maybe 4-5 shaves it's right in the groove. I'm guessing that stropping it for a few hundred strokes would serve the same purpose and get the blade there sooner.
Just so that I understand, that's painted onto a hone? Not used to charge a strop with? Could it be used on a strop? Or would that just be ill advised?
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Post by mjclark on Oct 17, 2014 22:51:40 GMT -6
I've painted the CrOx onto a Rolls hone which I'm then going to put into the stropping side of the case. Since the CrOx needs to do a bit of cutting, I'd expect better results from a firm surface like balsa or the original Rolls hone. The feox is for realigning and smoothing the edge, so gives better results on a surface with some "give" or cushion like the leather or chipboard.
Brian, it's great to know that lapping film will do a perfect job here. Of course the progression is done outside the case on tiles but for the final finish on the blades before stropping, are you using film in the case overlaying the hone or outside of it on a tile? And what grade to finish, 1.0u or 0.3u?
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
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Post by ShadowsDad on Oct 18, 2014 0:18:56 GMT -6
To form the secondary bevel I used 1u film adhered to the hone with petroleum jelly. Then I stropped 25 strokes with .25u diamond then 50 strokes with FeOx.
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Post by mjclark on Oct 18, 2014 0:56:26 GMT -6
To form the secondary bevel I used 1u film adhered to the hone with petroleum jelly. Then I stropped 25 strokes with .25u diamond then 50 strokes with FeOx. Great! And that's giving you the great shaves we're reading about. I wonder how 0.3u film would work here. There are now so many possible combinations but we definitely know that your current system is a winner.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Oct 18, 2014 8:07:08 GMT -6
I've been thinking of using the 1u then the .3u then finishing with the stropping. I just haven't had time to try it yet. Too, until this blade requires honing I'm not going to upset the apple cart.
I was under the impression that I actually got a better shave with a bit more facial growth, so I've been shaving every other day. I need to reexamine that. Of course the data would accumulate faster shaving every day.
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Post by mjclark on Oct 29, 2014 15:53:54 GMT -6
Inspired by Brian's outstanding work in this thread, I now have case hones overlaid with 1u and 0.3u film, and a double sided strop with CrOx on one side and FeOx on the other (following Paul's suggestion to imitate the Darwin system).
Honing the blade just on 1u then stropping on FeOx resulted in an extremely sharp edge which was very rough on the first shave but which had settled in to become beautifully smooth by the second shave giving a fantastic BBS result.
I can't actually imagine getting a better shave than this, but will mess around with film/strop combinations and see what happens.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Oct 31, 2014 23:22:37 GMT -6
This is the journal I began keeping when I first started this Rolls Razor adventure. Everything that happened to me, everything I did, and do today, is in here. Rather than rewrite it I’m just posting it here in it’s entirety. This information should allow most anyone to get their Rolls in shaving condition and maintain one indefinitely.
Some of it will be redundant, having been posted previously, but again, here it is in it's entirety so as not to leave anything out.
I want to make it known that when I began this I knew absolutely nothing about honing a blade. I know a tiny bit more now, but not much. So if I can do it you can too.
Rolls Journal:
6/23/14
Got the blades back from Marcus after he honed them. Loaded blade #1 (see blade legend in the Maintenance document).
I convinced my face that it needed a late night shave. I stropped the blade for 1 minute on the FeOx (.3-.4u), then dove in. OK, the angle is critical. The blade spine wants to pretty much be on the skin for the razor to do it’s job. I wound up with a DFS and no blood.
I finished the shave by drying off the blade and stropping for 1 minute.
6/24/14
Marcus told me to knock myself out by stropping. So tonight while watching TV I stropped for 45 minutes on FeOx.
Tonights shave is really good! BBS except for the chin which has some stubble. No blood, good shave. Again finished the shave by drying it off and stropping for 1 minute.
6/25/14
I was torn as to shave or not today, but I really had little to shave so I postponed it for the 26th. But I did strop the blade on FeOx for another 20 minutes.
6/26/14
Daytime shave today. I closed the door to shut out the distractions.
To days shave was #3 and the best yet. It’s almost, but just a few hairs shy of being a true BBS. I had to run a cotton ball over my chin to make sure, and yes cotton is grabbed. But I’m getting the hang of it!
My SOTD post:
Thursday morning:
Cella (failed) then KMF mint (much better) Semogue 1250 handle, TGN 20mm Finest Fan knot Rolls Razor Kramperts Finest Frostbite
Initially I tried to use Cella with the Rolls. I generated my standard ultra lather and the Cella just did not feel good at all. I ditched it and relathered with KMF. That was much better.
I still need to get accustomed to the feel of the face during a Rolls shave. The face does NOT feel good after the shave, but 20 minutes later the face feels great. Instead during the shave I look for missed stubble visually. Today I did much better on the chin and sure enough now it's 15-20 minutes later and it's almost a BBS. Just one little spot on the chin that isn't. But this shave I can definitely live with even if it gets no better.
This is by far the best of the 3 shaves so far.
I'm really tickled with this razor. It's incredibly different from any other razor I've ever used and I love variety. It's not difficult to use, just different. It’s more a mind game than anything since the blade really has more in common with a straight razor than a SE razor. A safety razor it is NOT!
7/2/14 I stropped with the diamond strop (.25u) for the first time and stropped with the FeOx as a follow up.
7/15/14 I’m (I think) 14 shaves into this razor and the past half dozen at least have been BBSs.
I’ve used the .25u diamond sprayed strop once. A few minutes on the diamond, then 10 minutes on the FeOx. 50 complete strokes (down and back) on the diamond, approx 3 minutes. Then another 50 strokes on the FeOx.
7/22/14 18 shaves in. The razor isn’t getting the fine hairs, so I stropped using only the .25u diamond treated strop tonight. Just to try something different I did NOT follow it with the FeOx strop. 25 full strokes, then flip the blade for another 25, 50 total.
7/24/14 Clearly the blade has had it and needs work. Tonights shave was finished with the Muhle ‘11 R41. 7/26/14 I’m working out with Marcus how I should proceed on the honing of the blade.
Here’s the plan: 40 strokes on the Rolls hone, using oil, but out of the Rolls jig, and use it freestanding on the table. Then follow up with 30 strokes on lapping film, followed by 20 strokes on a .25u diamond charged strop, and a lot of stropping on FeOx (I plan on 50 strokes).
7/27/14 OK, so the above didn’t yield a shave up to my standards, so I honed it again. Same exact procedure as above. I’ll know in a day or 2 how it worked.
7/28/14 Tonights shave was a DFS, but the edge was shave ready. YIPPEE! I stropped it another 35 strokes on the FeOx afterwards. My intent is to see if the FeOx stropping and using the blade develops the edge into a better shave state. 7/29/14 Todays shave was very disappointing. So Marcus suggests this: Rolls hone x 50, lapping film x 30, diamond stropping x 20, feox stropping x100. Use oil for lubrication and no pressure. The less pressure the sharper the edge will come out.
8/6/14 My honing oil came in today so during the night I followed Marcus’ suggested honing regimen. I’ll find out how it worked today.
FWIW, I suspect I’m seeing some unsharpened blade through the 4x loupe. Maybe it was an area of corrosion from many years ago?
I used a 10x magnifier and sure enough it looks as though chunks have been taken out of the blade. Retiring the blade (#1 * ) until after I make it right. Clearly this blade has problems. I’m disappointed, but one doesn’t learn how to really handle a boat on calm seas. Real learning only takes place with challenges.
* I have 5 blades and I have them numbered as per their serial numbers so that I know which blade is which. I just think that makes sense in case of a problem blade, which this blade is right now.
8/7/14 Blade #3 is being pulled out of retirement. I examined it with the 10x magnifier and I see slight “chips” missing from the cutting edge, but nothing like blade #1.
9/1/14 I put 7 (or was it 8?) Shaves on Blade #3, and retired it. It was still shaving but the reason I retired it...
I received all of my Scary Sharp hardware and decided to hone blade #1 after playing with the system to get a feel for it. BTW, “scary sharp” a definite keeper for sharpening cutlery.
After honing the Rolls blade and checking it periodically with the B&L 3 lense magnifier (20x) I realized just how good the blade I’d just honed was. Hence I retired blade #3 to try blade #1. It was superb. After 1 50 stroke stropping on FeOx it has gotten even better.
OK, so how did I do the Scary Sharp? As per Marcus I did some “cutting” moves on 600 grit “window screen” abrasive to remove any additional loose metal. Then started with 800 grit wet or dry paper (on “float glass”, AKA tempered glass, for flatness- a must) to set the bevel and get a proto edge. This edge must be sharp and “right” as all the subsequent paper grades just remove scratches, then polish the blade to final sharpness and produce an exceedingly fine edge. So take pains with this grade. Be sure you have a cutting edge here. Then move on up the grits until you get to 1u lapping film. I gave the blade 12 strokes on each grade until I got to 3000 grit, then I used 20 strokes per paper grade working my way up to the 3u lapping film. The resulting edge was a thing of beauty at 20x. But it wasn’t done.
Marcus suspects that the Rolls hone is ~6u. So using it and then stropping as the set is designed to be used by Rolls might be a huge mistake. But I simply don’t know.
I still had to make the secondary bevel. So I moved to the Rolls case and using 1u lapping film on the stone gave it 25 strokes, 50 wouldn’t be out of the question. Then I moved to the strop and gave it 50 strokes on the .25u diamond, then 100 on the FeOx. I rotated the blade after ½ of the stokes was completed. I always rotate the blade 180° on the stud after 25 strokes when stropping. Too, do NOT slap the blade on the strop. When the blade flips in the case it should come over but it should come to rest as gently as possible. It has the flip the guard over, but use no more force than that requires. In a short time you’ll get the feel of it, until then exaggerate the gentleness required. Speed isn’t the goal, a good stropping job without destroying the edge is what you’re after. Remember how fine and delicate that edge is.
Back to the honed blade... The resulting blade looked really good under 20x. That night I shaved with it and it was superb. The Scary Sharp system is a keeper.
BTW, the paper grades I have for the Scary Sharp system are: 800 grit w/d silicon carbide 1000 grit w/d silicon carbide 1200 grit w/d silicon carbide 1500 grit w/d silicon carbide 2000 grit w/d silicon carbide 2500 grit w/d silicon carbide 3000 grit w/d silicon carbide 4000 grit w/d silicon carbide P5000 (5u) grit w/d silicon carbide 3u (pink) AlOx polyester lapping film 1u (green) AlOx polyester lapping film .3u (white) AlOx polyester lapping film
To hone a blade it is layed on the paper backed by the glass plate. The spine of the blade makes the correct sharpening angle for honing. The paper should be used wet to lubricate the blade and carry away the steel dust. Very little pressure is used on the blade. Just enough to allow the blade to make contact (the weight of a finger) and enough pressure on the rear of the blade, pushing forward, to make the blade move. Too much downward pressure will result in an edge that isn’t sharp; so I’ve read. I did what I wrote here and got a great edge the very first time. The same no pressure movement is used right up through the paper grades. After every movement of the blade, pushing away with no pressure, lift the blade, pull it back, flip it to the other side and repeat. I call one of these complete movements, both sides to be one stroke. I have no idea if that’s what other folks call it. BTW, don’t slap the blade down as you flip it. The edge you’re making is extremely fine and anything, even a piece of dust under the lapping film will be felt and destroy the edge. Allowing the blade to slap as it’s flipped won’t be good for the edge.
When one gets up to the 3u film you might wonder if it’s doing anything, but if you check the greyish tint of the water on the film you’ll realize that it is. At that point not much is happening, but what is happening is critical.
Oh, the cost for the Scary Sharp hardware? You'll need a piece of tempered glass 1/2" thick as a minimum. There was a screw up with my ordered piece, so I got a 12 x 12 (inches) for the same price as what I ordered, a piece 10 x 8 thereabouts. It cost me $15. The various papers can be bought by the sheet, or by the pack. I found sheets to cost $3 each (individually) or ~$12 per 5 sheet pack. I went that way, with the 5 packs. I don't remember what I paid for lapping film, but for the white I got a deal on ebay, a roll 13' long or some such for about $10. I got quite a few sheets out of the roll for less $ than buying a pack of sheets.
Especially if you plan on sharpening cutlery or using the Scary Sharp system in the shop for chisels and such, you'll use far more "coarse" grit than you will fine grit. So take that into account when buying paper. If I had found 50 packs for a decent price I would have gotten those in the 800 - 1500 (maybe up to 3000) grit range.
9/4/14 I have 2 shaves on this blade and shave #2 was better than shave #1. The edge is getting more refined with more stropping. I’m loving the Rolls now... a lot!
I intend to put the 20x glass to all the blades and hone the ones that show the slightest hint of not being up to snuff. That will give me plenty of practice honing.
I’ve also moved from petroleum jelly to prevent rust and to Renaissance Wax.
9/8/14 This mornings shave was #4 on this blade and the shaves just keep getting better. This shave was as good as any other razor I’ve ever used. On the first pass it removed 98% of the stubble. The resulting BBS is, as I write, 18 hours old and would still be a DFS.
Before stropping after this shave I glassed the edge @ 20x and the secondary bevel is just a mirror. I see imperfections but they appear to be minor from the shave results. I may be too picky regarding the seeing of imperfections. 10/27/14 For a few shaves now I’ve been considering honing the blade to get a better edge. The shaves are still BBS, but I have the idea in the back of my head that the edge has changed. I have 24 shaves on this blade since it’s last honing; not too shabby.
So I checked with Marcus and he suggested dropping back to the 1u lapping film on the Rolls hone in the case. That would sharpen just the secondary bevel. Tonight I gave the blade 100 strokes on the 1u lapping film with 3 drops of honing oil for lubricant. After each 25 strokes I flipped the blade 180° on the stud. Then the .3u lapping film was used for 50 strokes, again, flipping the blade after 25 stokes (this will be constant throughout this). Then 50 strokes with the .25u diamond treated strop and finished up with 100 strokes on the FeOx treated strop.
Note: when honing a blade outside of the case (infrequent hopefully) I have used water as the lubricant. But inside the case I use honing oil which is nothing more than a highly refined mineral oil. One could also use vegetable oil. I think water would be a poor choice inside the case. Marcus suggested not using water there and I concur. Too much in there that can rust. While I’m on the subject of oil in the case. Be sure to lightly oil the gears and anything that moves. That includes the blade holder and where it slips between the handle and blade. It only needs light friction to give the proper amount of pressure to the blade against the hone and strop. Remember, too much dowward pressure will result in an edge lacking sharpness, so lubricate where the blade holder slips. It doesn’t require a great deal of lube. I used a synthetic gun oil, but any oil is better than no oil. FWIW, WD40 is deodorized kerosene and is NOT a lubricant, so don’t use that product.
The result for the next shave was a great BBS shave with no harshness.
My plan not is to drop back to the 1u lapping film and repeat the rest of the process at regular scheduled intervals. Maybe after 15 shaves.
After every shave I’ve stropped on FeOx for 50 strokes, rotating the blade 180° after 25 strokes. Treating the blade with the Renaissance Wax has been my normal routine after every stropping to prevent rust, and that appears to be working, so I’ll continue with that. I could use petroleum jelly or oil, but that makes the blade slippery and I just don’t like that with a blade that must be handled after every shave. The wax does build up, but is easily removed with oil on a tissue, mineral spirits, or (I assume) stronger solvents like acetone (the wifes nail polish remover).
I know the above works and I’m as new a Rolls Razor user and just as new to honing. I was able to hone and maintain the Rolls Razor and I knew virtually nothing. But I’m learning and that leads me to my next statement.
This adventure isn’t over by any means. There are still things to learn and pass on to each other.
At the very least Marcus has some data to add to this.
To be continued...
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Post by mjclark on Nov 1, 2014 3:37:39 GMT -6
Fantastic write up Brian! I admire your systematic approach, enthusiasm and perserverance with this. It shows that the Rolls can give truly amazing shaves with all the comfort and finesse of a straight combined with the manouverability of a safety.
Since the Rolls is essentially a straight blade, I have used the same honing set up as I use for my straights to make the Rolls blades shave ready.
Once this vital step of honing them fully outside the case has been taken, I believe that the blades can be maintained indefinitely to give BBS shaves by simply stropping them in the case and honing in the case at regular intervals, as the original Rolls system intended.
As you've noticed, using different honing media can create edges of equal sharpness but with a different feel to them. The Scary Sharp system is very effective. The Scary Sharp lapping film creates clinically sharp edges which can initially feel harsh but soon "settle in" to a smooth and lovely shave - the characteristics of the edge change (and normally soften) with subsequent shaves.
The crucial thing with these blades, as with all honing, is to set the bevel i.e. get the sides of the blade to meet at an edge that is thinner than the gap between the platelets in a beard hair.
I use a coarse (0.8-1k) synthetic stone with mineral oil to set the bevel. There are plenty of youtube tutorials about this, and setting the bevel is the foundation upon which all the rest is built. You will know when the bevel is set because the blade will then easily shave arm hair and pass the Thumb Nail Test (look it up!)
I then take the blade through a progression of Welsh slates with oil: Dragons Tongue (6-8k), Yellow Lake (8-10k), Purple Slate (10-12k). This gives a very crisp edge and works well with harder steels. I have a Kajima waterstone now and that gives softer edges and works well with older softer Sheffield steels, so it will be interesting to see what results that gives with the Rolls blades.
After this honing progression, which should only ever need to be done once, I've overlaid the Rolls hone with 1u lapping film and sealed it on there with a thin film of petroleum jelly. I've also abraded the strop with 600 w/d, soaked it overnight in moisturiser then pasted it with feox powder in mineral oil.
Simply honing the blade in the case on the 1u film for 50 laps then stropping in the case for 60 laps has given me a great edge on these shave ready blades. The first shave from this does feel harsh, but the second shave onwards is beautiful!
Rather than waiting for the blade to dull, I like the idea of regular case honings to maintain, maybe once a week or fortnight.
I have another Rolls hone overlaid with 0.3u film and I wonder how effective it would be to use that instead of the 1u for the case honing.
Following Paul's suggestion, and inspired by the Darwin system (which was a Rolls rival), I also have a double sided strop with chromium oxide on one side and ferric oxide on the other. With the Darwin system, you stropped on CrOx instead of honing, so we'll see...
As has been noted, you will also occasionally get dud blades which have micropitting (as a loupe will reveal). Rolls blades are so plentiful that if you get a corroded one like that, just kick it to the curb and use a good one instead!
And finally for now, and I know you were as amazed by this as I was Brian, the shave from the Rolls will start to feel closer and smoother 20 minutes after you've finished. It feels like the stubble is magically contracting, but in fact it's your skin expanding as it remoisturises. Weird eh?
And I totally agree with you Brian that a properly prepared Rolls gives one of the very best shaves that can be had. Hopefully your adventure will encourage more users to experiment with these razors - there's surely a lot more to be discovered.
And the Rolls razors are so plentiful and generally neglected. It's like we're walking through a landscape strewn with diamonds...
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Nov 1, 2014 12:33:23 GMT -6
I like that last sentence Marcus. Indeed a landscape strewn with diamonds. They are relatively inexpensive and plentiful... for the moment. And sets in terrible condition but with a selectively required spare part or 2 are even less expensive and easy to find. That's how I cobbled together everything I wanted to begin experimenting.
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Post by mjclark on Jan 5, 2015 7:38:00 GMT -6
Blade F-5 with aluminium handle queued up for tonight's shave: The fact that the blade lacks the two figure date code means that it is a replacement blade rather than one which came with an original set. My other two shave ready blades are H 46-5 (1946) and A 50-7 (1950). But what do the letters and single digit signify? And has anybody figured out the serial numbers on the corner of the case? My 1946 Imperial has "B946089" I do not yet have the earlier telescopic handle, but have a choice of weights for the two-piece handle, the heavier steel or lighter aluminium. The Rolls blades don't fit the heavy bulldog handle and frame of the Darwin because the spine is too thick. Any suggestions for a mod to give the Rolls a bulldog handle etc? Set the bevel on this blade using a coarse synthetic without tape, then Dragons Tongue, Vintage Yellow Lake and Purple Slate with oil. Then formed a secondary bevel honing in the case with 1u lapping film followed by 0.3u film. Finally lots of stropping in the case on a reconditioned strop pasted with ferric oxide. I'm going to use Williams for prep since slickness is what's required here. Great shaving awaits!
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Post by mjclark on Jan 6, 2015 15:22:12 GMT -6
Ok - second shave on blade F-5 tonight I used Williams again and it really does seem perfect for the Rolls shave. I also used the heavier steel handle and realised that the weight of the handle doesn't really matter. The blade is nearly flat to the face and provides the necessary momentum through its own weight. What's important in the handle is grip and the OEM handle has plenty of that. Darwin blades are numbered on each side, and the Rolls blade has different markings on each side. There's a suggestion that flipping the blade keeps it smoother due to the effect of face stropping. We know with DE blades this is nonsense, but with these heavier wedge blades who knows? This blade is settling in nicely, still a little harsh but smoother than yesterday and still shockingly sharp. The Rolls always feels a bit harsh on my neck yet the result is a gorgeous irritation free shave. Maybe I need to do a bit more skin stretching with it. I also wonder how long the FeOx pasted case strop will maintain the edge.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jan 6, 2015 15:49:08 GMT -6
Marcus, that's what I found also re: weight. It's really more attitude on the part of the operator than anything else IMO. There really is only one way to use it... as you wrote, flat against the skin. The closer to flat the better.
Lately I've been considering another month of use with the Rolls, to happen very soon, to just to keep in form. I don't want to lose what I learned.
OK, there's another reason as well. My new soap makes some pretty slick lather. I want to try it with the Rolls.
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Post by mjclark on Jan 17, 2015 18:34:55 GMT -6
Great Rolls shave tonight with a freshly honed blade from Spidey Breadknifed out some chips. Very aggressive bevel set on Norton India with oil. Dragons Tongue with oil. Vintage Yellow Lake with oil. Welsh Purple Slate with oil. 1u lapping film in the case. 0.3u lapping film in the case. Stropped on feox pasted chipboard Viscount strop in the case. Absolutely gorgeous shave reminding me just how good the Rolls can be It is galling how many people discount the Rolls after experiencing a mediocre shave from an unprepared blade.<br /> It's a mystery why the Rolls came with a case hone that wouldn't do the job properly but the OEM Rolls strop paste (which is feox based) is awesome. One of the great things is that with these methods we are getting better shaves from the Rolls now than ever before - it's a 21st Century razor! And I dip my blades in a cup of mineral oil that I use for storing carbon blades between shaves and coating str8s. Oh and Brian, your soap works extremely well with the Rolls!
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jan 18, 2015 0:15:18 GMT -6
Thanks! I thought it might.
I need to get my Rolls sharpened and try it.
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Post by mjclark on Apr 13, 2015 16:33:03 GMT -6
Hold the phone! I thought I'd try an experiment with my lovely new Rolls Imperial No.2 1950 set This was the ideal set to experiment with since its previous owner (God rest his soul) had bought it when new and only used it a handful of times, possibly only once. Instead of honing the blade externally and overlaying the hone with lapping film, I soaked the OEM hone in petroleum jelly overnight then wiped off the excess and simply honed the blade in the case on that, then stropped in the case after pasting the strop with the OEM paste. The result was a very very nice shave indeed. It's a bit of a mystery as to why original Rolls blades don"t seem shave ready and the OEM hone isn't up to the job either. How could they sell so many units of an item that simply wasn't fit for purpose? But paste the case strop and soak the OEM hone in vaseline and the whole thing starts working as it should. Until now, we've got the best results by honing the blade externally and using lapping film in the case. This new method of soaking the case hone in vaseline seems to be working just as well and is a lot more straightforward. See what you think...
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