ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jun 24, 2014 21:56:32 GMT -6
Some may have seen in the 21st Century Rolls Razor thread where Marcus was honing my blades for me. So as not to confuse that thread I'll post my adventures with it here. Understand, I'm the perfect test bed for Marcus' and my goal of ultimately making a "do this" sort of thread for folks who want to use their Rolls Razor and know absolutely nothing about maintaining a shave edge. What I'm saying is that I'm one of those folks. I knew absolutely nothing at the start of this, and barely more now.
A year or more ago my first shave with this razor was a dismal failure, but too, I knew absolutely nothing and used it as I would a SE razor. Same angle and such, and that's just wrong. But I didn't even know where to begin so I put it down until such time presented itself for success.
Last night was my first shave with the razor and I think it went well. No blood was seen at all, and the shave was a DFS. Curiously (I thought I was going nuts) the shave felt much better 10-20 minutes after the shave than it did immediately after the shave. Marcus later told me that that is quite normal for a shave with a straight razor, which is basically what the Rolls is. I also discovered that the razor works best when the blade lays flat against the skin.
After asking Marcus if it would hurt anything I stropped the blade on FeOx for 45 minutes tonight. Then I shaved again (#2). Tonight's shave was much better, I think mostly because I knew what to expect, but maybe the stropping helped? For whatever reason this shave was mostly a BBS 20 minutes later. The chin is where it's not a BBS. Again, angle is really critical. When the angle was right I almost couldn't even feel the blade. It also drives home the fact that shaving with a blade is all about stubble reduction and not getting it all in one pass. I saw quite a bit of whiskers remaining after the WTG pass, yet a lot of whiskers were obvious in the lather caught by the blade.
I just faceturbated and I can't believe how much better tonight's shave is from last nights.
I was asked by another gent about aggressiveness of the Rolls. It's basically a straight razor and I can't see that term applying to it. It can remove a slab of skin if not used correctly, but used with the proper angle and pressure it's a pussy cat. It's incredibly easy to use IMO.
So far I'm happy with this adventure. Now to see how long I can maintain the blade. I see that as the real test. Do I like the Rolls? Yes.
Is it like any other razor I've ever used? Absolutely not. There is nothing I can compare it to. But like other razors, angle is critical and I keep wanting to drop the spine away from my skin as I would with a SE razor. That doesn't work so much with the Rolls. Obviously with something so sharp one doesn't need to be convinced to use a light hand as with any other bladed razor.
More to follow as I learn.
Marcus, my FeOx treated strop has clearly and distinctly seen dark/black steel discoloring on it now. Do I leave it alone? I also adjusted the guard to stay in place better, but that means it doesn't move back and forth in the stropping jig. I don't see that as a negative as the blade can't be slapped on the strop at all now. On every pass over the strop I need to push the blade past the guard before the stroke so that it contacts the strop surface. I did consider removing the guard, but dropping the blade tonight (I keep it greased) convinced me to keep it in place to protect the blade from Mr. Fumblefingers.
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Post by mjclark on Jun 24, 2014 23:43:16 GMT -6
That BBS is great news Brian! As far as the streaks on the strop, it shows that the abrasion is effective - those streaks are metal particles. Over time they will make the abrasive/polishing surface finer and finer, refining the edge even further. Eventually you will want to relap, condition and paste the strop again to make it like new but that is a long long way off. The Rolls is so similar to a straight in the results it produces but has the manouverability of a safety and, as you are discovering, it really rewards good technique. I wonder if this is another reason why the Rolls fell into obscurity? As well as the issues of shave readiness it also needs a bit of skill and practice to give any kind of a decent shave. But when it does the results are superb! Great stuff Brian! Keep us posted
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jun 25, 2014 0:46:52 GMT -6
That's precisely my thought as to why it fell to the wayside. It takes time and knowledge to get it shave ready and maintain it. Just look on YouTube to find "modern techniques" with the Rolls. That was precisely why my first effort with the Rolls ended prematurely. I didn't have a clue any more than the folks on YouTube. If you hadn't honed my blades and held my hand through the stropping and such my Rolls would still be waiting for "the right time". In all fairness I saw one gent on YouTube who appeared to know.
OK, let's contrast the Rolls or a straight razor with a disposable blade razor... If I want a shave with a SE razor I go to the bathroom and pull out my razor with a SS blade in it and shave. If the blade's dull I pull out another, put it in place and I'm off. It's close to instant. But with the Rolls a shave is a deliberate effort, much like a straight razor. It requires a certain amount of skill. (Which we're trying to reduce I might add) History is rife with mankind making things simpler and less labor intensive. So yes, undoubtedly, the time and skill required is what made the Rolls fall to the wayside. It takes folks like all of us here to bring this stuff back and keep it alive.
I quite like it though. It probably isn't what I would use when the house is awake, but at night I have the time. I had time to strop the blade while the TV was on and the wife was up. It's not like TV is mentally stimulating after all. :-) All she did was ask, "What are you doing?", when I was almost done stropping the blade. Beyond that, nothing.
Marcus, one thing I screwed up on... I should have held back one blade from honing. After we get this nailed down I'd like to see if I can bring a blade back to shave ready status using only the Rolls kit and what we suggest to folks. But I suspect I'll have volunteer blades if I ask for one, or I can buy one on Ebay if I need to.
I'm enjoying this! It's interesting!
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Post by drumzalot on Jun 25, 2014 7:41:32 GMT -6
Brain, it is this very reason of maintaining the blade that has kept me from testing a Rolls. Marcus knows how to hone blades but I have never done so. The Rolls don't sell for a high amount and don't seem to be popular like the common Gem razors. I would imagine that after a certain amount of uses the blade won't be able to sharpen? A mint NOS Rolls was up on the bay for $100!
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jun 25, 2014 7:59:07 GMT -6
Joe, that's what we're trying to find out. Since the strop on a Rolls is always flat it will never roll the edge over as happens with a straight razor. So the theory is that I'll be able to maintain the edge only with the FeOx stropping. I stropped for 45 minutes only to get the edge in shape that one time. Now I'm hoping normal stropping will do it. BUT... if it doesn't I have other ways to bring the edge back. It's just a matter of seeing if that will be required.
I didn't pay big $ for any of my Rolls kits, but none of them were mint either. I just kept doing the minimum bid on various kits that I thought looked OK. I wanted to see a good blade and a good hone. I bought 5 I think, one of which was really nice but not mint. That gave me, if memory serves, 2 good hones, at least 2 good handles, 5 strops that I brought back to life, and a bunch of kit bodies. I don't believe I have over $100 invested in any of it. Combined with the experimental sharpening items, yes. But once we figure this out I don't believe anyone will need to lay that $ out to get going. But right now all of that is just a thought that needs to be proven.
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Post by PJGH on Jun 25, 2014 14:37:57 GMT -6
Joe - I am enormously resistant to maintaining blades, but the Rolls is such a simple system. So long as your kit comes with a good hone and good strop, you're in for a trouble-free life with it. Wet the hone before use and keep the strop supple. That's all. Beyond that, the kit looks after itself.
Marcus recently modernised one of my sets with a lapped hone and FeOx impregnated strop. He did something clever with the blade to multi-facet the edge and it does feel very good indeed. I hope to shave with it tomorrow.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jun 26, 2014 10:10:32 GMT -6
I hope no one gets bent out of shape that I put my SOTD here. I see no reason to put it in 2 places.
Thursday morning:
Cella (failed) then KMF mint (much better) Semogue 1250 handle, TGN 20mm Finest Fan knot Rolls Razor Kramperts Finest Frostbite
Initially I tried to use Cella with the Rolls. I generated my standard ultra lather and the Cella just did not feel good at all. I ditched it and relathered with KMF. That was much better.
I still need to get accustomed to the feel of the face during a Rolls shave. The face does NOT feel good after the shave, but 20 minutes later the face feels great. Instead during the shave I look for missed stubble visually. Today I did much better on the chin and sure enough now it's 15-20 minutes later and it's almost a BBS. Just one little spot on the chin that isn't. But this shave I can definitely live with even if it gets no better.
This is by far the best of the 3 shaves so far.
I'm really tickled with this razor. It's incredibly different from any other razor I've ever used and I love variety. It's not difficult to use, just different.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jun 27, 2014 22:01:21 GMT -6
Shave #4 is history.
The "problem" continues to be the chin. There are just some creases in it that have hairs that resist being cut. Frankly they were a problem with my other SE and DE razors also, but it wasn't an insurmountable problem. I don't think it is with this razor either, I just need to figure it out. Probably by stretching the skin differently. (Minutes after writing this and the hairs have retreated even more and the chin is the best it's been with the Rolls. It still isn't a BBS, but very close. So I am closing in on it.)
I didn't even feel the face for shave quality during this shave. It's a waste of time to do that as one doesn't know what the face will really feel like until quite awhile after the shave.
But after the whiskers have had time to retreat, the shave is quite close. Just as close in fact (except for the chin) as the Muhle '11 R41, and maybe a bit closer. 24 hours from now the shave will still be a DFS if it's the same as the last shaves I got with it and I see no reason it won't be.
Too, The other night I used Cella and frankly it was the pits with the Rolls. But I always thought Cella lacked qualities that always made it feel "cheap" to me. Last night it lasted a few strokes only. It was terrible and missing slickness or glide. I relathered with KMF and that was much better. Tonight I used P.160 and it was fine. So that's another observation. Replaceable blade razors can use soaps that won't work with a straight, which is basically what the Rolls is.
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Post by mjclark on Jun 27, 2014 22:40:58 GMT -6
Cool Brian! If you are getting shaves as close as an R41 then it's job done! It's addictive searching for the right stroke pattern to get BBS on all areas of the face - I need ATG at two different angles for my chin, there's one small area on the left of my neck where I can only shave WTG to avoid irritation so I do that on all three passes, and the jawline below my ears needs a lot of stretching. Also very slick lather is a must.
This all ties in with wchnu's recent post about equipment vs technique. I hadn't considered how demanding the Rolls is of technique until reading your adventures with it - I guess this is another reason why it has fallen into obscurity, but the reward for practice and perserverance is a shave of a quite different order to that of disposable blade safety razors.
And it's such a long lasting shave too - with the Rolls (and the ER 1924) the regrowth seems a lot slower and I can look really smart for about 24hrs as opposed to 12hrs with most other SEs and only about 8-10 hrs with DEs.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jun 27, 2014 23:02:18 GMT -6
Ever since I posted that I had a BBS except for the chin I had those long lasting shaves. :-) Except for the chin.
It still boggles my mind that the face feels so "terrible" if I feel for stubble during the shave. Then feels so good after the skin has had time to rest. Ten - 20 minutes makes a huge difference.
Too, that the shave with the Rolls itself should feel so different during it. But that's cool. I like variety. The Rolls definitely brings that! It almost feels like a disposable razor shave with a dull blade. After the WTG pass the beard seems to almost not even be touched. It's freaky. ATG makes all the difference.
I may stop posting "yet another great shave" for awhile until I have something meaningful to post, but I intend to use the Rolls for every shave for quite some time to nail it down. Too, I want to make sure I can maintain the blade with only the FeOx and strop. I'm also keeping notes when I do something other than typical stropping before and after the shave.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jun 30, 2014 23:03:02 GMT -6
Tonights shave was the best yet, soooo very close to a BBS. If I had known it was going to be so close to a BBS I'd have spent more time on the offending area. But the shave really can't be felt until long after it's over and the hairs retreat. Oddly enough the chin was not the problem I did good on the chin tonight. The offending area is one that never gave me a problem before.
Last nights shave was almost as good.
I'm stropping longer, maybe 10 minutes or so while the TV is playing. Still stropping on the FeOx (.3-.4u). I did put some .25u diamond spray on a strop but haven't used it yet. Because the strop stroke is so short I'm thinking more strokes need to be taken to equal a "real" strop. So far it appears to be working. The blade feels good.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 1, 2014 23:16:11 GMT -6
Tonight shave was a solid BBS in anyone's book; even mine, and I grade hard. Yippee!
Marcus, tell me if I'm nuts... We tell noobs not to use pressure against the skin. But I've been noticing that the Rolls works best with a bit of pressure. That made the difference on the chin and in other problems areas. OK, am I nuts for doing that or not? I'm not seeing blood and the razor appears to work much better in those areas. Don't ask me why I'm getting away with it. I don't understand it, it just appears to make the razor work better.
The 10 minutes of stropping on FeOx appears to work fine. I do it after the shave then put petroleum jelly on the blade and it's ready for the next shave.
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Post by mjclark on Jul 1, 2014 23:50:03 GMT -6
Congrats on another fine shave! I wonder if the pressure you're using is actually stretching the skin?
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RocketMan
Gem Star
RazorAddict
Welcome To The Sharp Side!
Posts: 4,167
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Post by RocketMan on Jul 2, 2014 0:44:54 GMT -6
It is good to hear your journey with the reconditioned Rolls blade. I imagine the extra pressure might be due to the sharpness of the blade? As with straights, when the edge is not quite sharp enough the compensation is to push harder. Often a sign the blade isn't performing as well as needed.
You have been getting some decent shave time though it sounds like. Is there a secondary bevel put on the blade? Or perhaps the use of tape when honed?
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Post by mjclark on Jul 2, 2014 1:00:57 GMT -6
Those blades were honed without tape to create a secondary bevel, since that makes a different angle to that created when honed in the case. They were all finished on 0.3u lapping film and shave tested, so there shouldn't be any problems with their initial sharpness. I've always found that pushing harder with a dull blade only causes irritation...
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