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Post by mjclark on Jul 2, 2014 2:55:18 GMT -6
Hey Brian! Had a breakthrough moment over here. After our discussions (and a look at the Darwin system) I stropped a Rolls blade in the case on 0.25u diamond paste, then stropped again on the feox case strop. As predicted, the first pass was very harsh, but the blade settled in by the second pass giving a fantastic effortless and irritation free BBS. It's the best Rolls edge yet I know this is something you're thinking of trying, so let's compare notes.
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RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Jul 2, 2014 4:00:50 GMT -6
It is a very interesting trial that is for sure!
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ShadowsDad
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 2, 2014 7:33:23 GMT -6
I'll give it a try Marcus. I have a strop prepared with the diamond. How long should I strop for would you suggest?
Is there a way to test for a sharp(er) blade?
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Post by mjclark on Jul 2, 2014 8:09:14 GMT -6
I've been stropping on the feox for a minute or so. The diamond is very aggressive so maybe a minute or less than that then lots of feox stropping afterwards, but initially it will still be harsh.
As for sharpness tests, the shave itself is the definitive test. But you can go through the looking glass into the world of the Hanging Hair Test (plenty of videos and instructions elsewhere) or just see how armhair behaves when you shave it.
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ShadowsDad
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 2, 2014 8:31:49 GMT -6
Thanks.
I looked it up on YouTube, but I'll just need to test by shaving. There's simply no way I'll remove the guard from a sharp Rolls blade. :-) I know when not to do something and removing the guard doesn't strike me as being something with a high percentage of success w/o blood.
Blood doesn't bother me, but seeing my own tendons and such does. Heck, I don't even like handling the blade with the guard in place.
Edit: The diamond stropping and finishing on FeOx is complete and just waiting for tonights shave.
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ShadowsDad
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 6, 2014 23:26:59 GMT -6
Tonight's shave was far and away the best shave yet. I'd been getting BBS shaves after the skin and follicles relaxed; maybe 20 minutes after the shave. But tonight's shave was clearly a BBS immediately after I rinsed the soap off.
I know why. It wasn't the razor that was the problem. It was me.
I use aggressive safety razors. I also use a feather light touch on them, what we call no pressure. A small firmness so that they don't skip over the face, but that's all.
I've been losing my fear of the Rolls. Face it, it's an incredibly sharp blade and it will take a slice out of the face over an inch wide and quite deep. It is not a safety razor. The guard on the blade does NOT make it a safety razor. So I was treating it as if it was an aggressive replaceable blade razor with a light touch. WRONG!
I've been using a firmer hand more and more with it, and maybe using a bit of pressure, but I think the firmer hand was the key. The firmer the hand I used the better the shave. Tonight I think I lost my fear of the blade and maintained a firm hand throughout the shave; mostly anyway. When I didn't the shave suffered. Relathering that section immediately and using a firm hand the whiskers got cut easily. Part of this is that I lost my fear of the razor. OK, maybe fear isn't the right word. But I knew what the blade could do and I tippy toed around it. Tonight I didn't.
It's like trying to break boards with karate. If you try to break the board you probably won't. What you do is don't try, you just do. And you don't break the top board, you break the board that is 6" below the board you intend to break. I wielded the razor tonight in that manner. Not trying to get a good shave but actually getting a good shave as though I "owned" the razor.
The result was an absolutely incredible shave. No, a perfect shave, typical of what I would expect from my most aggressive razors with my very best blade installed in it. Except the Rolls is much easier to use, MUCH easier, and far less harsh.
One problem, the Frostbite isn't as cold anymore. I removed more skin layers with my aggressive safety razors. Not so many with the Rolls.
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Post by mjclark on Jul 7, 2014 0:40:27 GMT -6
Absolutely awesome Brian!! Your technique is very similar to the one I found for bakelite razors (so perhaps the lightness of the Rolls is a contributory factor) - it requires firmness and assertiveness combined with delicacy, rather than relying on feedback.
And I really like the karate analogy - like you say it's not about trying, it's about doing. A similar very light but very firm touch is required for instrument making and also for honing so perhaps you might find you have an aptitude for that too if you ever choose to explore it.
It's also a relief to hear that you are experiencing those truly incredible shaves - I sometimes have a Rolls crisis because it really seems to deliver the perfect shave and I think "Why would I ever use any other razor" and start wondering what I'm going to do with my collection...
...and thanks for this thread. You have discovered an aspect of the Rolls which I'd overlooked and which I'm sure has caused many people to give up on it - it demands a good technique which requires practice before yielding the kind of superlative shave that you've just experienced.
This thread and your journey make a great resource for other Rolls users to really learn this razor!
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ShadowsDad
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 7, 2014 11:22:37 GMT -6
Yes, I think it's the lightness and the razor setup with the "adze like" configuration. With a straight razor I'm thinking all that hand contact with the razor produces the firm support automatically. But the Rolls, with the less than optimal leverage for firm support, actually requires one to deliberately supply the firmness. Understand I write that bit and have never used a straight razor. You'd know better whether or not that would actually be true. I wonder if choking up on the handle, holding it closer to the blade, would help produce that sort of firmness by just changing hand position. If I remember I'll try that tonight.
What you wrote about questioning the razor collection... I did that last night after that fantastic shave.
But even that thought is too soon for me. I still need to do this in the long term. I have months of Rolls shaves yet to go before I can even contemplate that thought again. But what an incredible shaving instrument. It's not merely foreign, it's not even from the same galaxy. It's that different IMO. A totally different technique is required that masquerades as being similar because of the handle. Yes, I think that's the key that has kept other folks from using it effectively. I have to wonder how close I was to a shaving edge after I spent all those hours honing and stropping the blade a year or so ago when I first tried to use it. I'll never know.
Another aspect of this razor is that I got that good a shave with no harshness, and I have yet to see any blood from it. With a shave that close, and with my old and deep wrinkled skin that's pretty amazing. The old timers knew a thing or 2. But I knew that with my use of SE razors.
So far I'm really enjoying this razor. A lot!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 12:10:10 GMT -6
I'm finally in a situation were I can start getting my Rolls up to snuff for shaving adventures. I'm getting great info here. Thanks guys.
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ShadowsDad
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 7, 2014 14:32:10 GMT -6
The more the merrier Kevin. If you want to be in on the experimental phase of this it will go much faster with another experimenter. The goal being to find out what works for the average Joe who doesn't want to spend oodles of $ buying hones and such, and just use what came with the Rolls kit and a few added items to enhance the OEM gear. I think I have under $100 in "gear" and I have many options for maintaining the blade. I suspect I could take a blade from the wild at this point and make it shave ready with what I have in hand by using the Rolls kit with the sprays and films. But I'd need guidance to do that or a lot of luck to do it right.
If you don't want to be an experimenter, that's still OK. In that case we're doing this for you and others to benefit from it.
PM Marcus or myself for more details if you want to help. Marcus has already offered to hone blades for forum members, so for the cost of postage to the UK and back... Marcus honed my blades for me. Hopefully it will only be that one time that they require honing. That's the goal. Get them honed once, use them forever with the kit.
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exapno
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Post by exapno on Jul 12, 2014 15:51:32 GMT -6
Time and funds are in short supply for me at the moment but when I have a little more of both I'll be joining the experiment (once my Viscount is returned to a usable condition). I'm considering replacing the hone with a sheet of cut to size perspex or toughened glass covered with lapping film... what do you reckon gentlemen?
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ShadowsDad
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 12, 2014 16:39:12 GMT -6
Glad to have you aboard when you can work it in!
I'm going to leave the reply re: the hone modification to Marcus. It's simply nothing that I can address, but lapping films might be required at some point. We simply don't know yet. Marcus has pretty much told me that the Rolls hone is pretty much useless for an already honed blade. I plan to use my hone as a foundation for lapping film should it be needed.
You might want an additional strop for diamond spray. It does make the edge better than using only .3u-.4u FeOx alone. But not to use it every day. So far I've used the diamond strop once and that only briefly.
FWIW, todays shave:
Saturday afternoon:
Omega 40033 Wide Waist Mighty Midget- blonde- faux ivory hollow handle, 23x48mm Boots Rolls Razor Kramperts Finest Frostbite
Yet another BBS with this wonderful piece of shaving design.
No irritation, no blood (once [last shave? 2 shaves ago?] when I got over ambitious with the blade and didn't stretch the skin enough, but it wasn't anything bad; little more than a weeper), just a great shave.
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Post by mjclark on Jul 13, 2014 0:46:00 GMT -6
Hey David! Lapping film on the hone is a great idea. I affixed 1.0? film to the original case hone with a thin layer of vaseline. Followed by lots of stropping on the pasted case strop, it does refresh the edge nicely but is initially a bit harsh. This soon settles in though.
I wonder how 0.3u film would do instead?
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ShadowsDad
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 13, 2014 1:30:10 GMT -6
:-) I'm hoping we never need to find out. I have the AlOx 1u and the .3u and if I never need to use them I'll be quite happy. I did find 2 other grit compositions, one was diamond in unknown grits, coarser I believe, and I can't remember what the other composition was.
Marcus, this is a noob question, :-) hence me asking it, but how many shaves approx' would a standard straight yield before the edge is rounded over from stropping and it would need to be honed again? I should have kept track of the # of shaves so far, but I can guesstimate and keep a count starting now.
I think 12-13 would be a close guesstimate so I'm starting there with my count. The actual # might be higher, but I'd rather be conservative on the count.
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Post by mjclark on Jul 13, 2014 8:04:44 GMT -6
Depends on how good your stropping is with a hanging strop for a straight- anywhere between 7 and over 100 shaves. If you touch it up between shaves (which I do) then maybe it'll go forever! BUT the Rolls has a flat paddle-type strop and a perfect stropping mechanism so doesn't ever round the edge. So we really don't know how far the Rolls blade will go with pasted stropping and you are finding out! 12-13 shaves is already great. The Rolls literature suggested that the blade might need honing weekly, so our system has already improved on that
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