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Post by fram773 on Nov 3, 2014 12:46:08 GMT -6
Anyone heard of this? Douglas "Smythe" an obviously fake name has been caught using multiple identities as well as claiming being exCIA and a veteran. Apparently some vendors are pulling his products from their stores and there has been a question of the ingredients even being what the label says. BeBerlin was right... I can't say I'm surprised though... For one, He has been known to create fake, multiple identities to shill his products among many different forums. Take it from moderator "Agravic" post #18 of TSN who admitted he had been banned for that reason: shavenook.com/thread-petal-pusher-fancies-and-htgam-the-sameEdit found another forum's member who posted this nice list: shavenook.com/thread-petal-pusher-fancies-and-htgam-the-same?page=71) He has been banned from several forums/group prior to all this due to his rude behaviour and flouting of vendor rules 2) He has shilled his own product under several different names 3) He conned his customers in thinking PPF was run by a separate individual when it was him all along 4) He conducted 'interviews' with the PPF owner, when it was just him interviewing himself pretending to be two people 5) questions have ben raised in regards to his soap ingredients and FDA status, which he has never cleared up leaving customers with doubts 6) He lied about being a veteran so he could have exclusive access to a veterans forum to shill his product to them under false pretences. 7) He attempted to sabotage Stirling soaps 8) created a smear campaign against Maggards on reddit 9) tried deleting evidence of his crimes when people called him out. some folks manged to screenshot stuff before he got rid of them. --update-- It appears Douglas AKA Hodges AKA Eric has had to change the name of his company to "Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements" shavenook.com/thread-same-game-different-name-htgam-ppf-phoenix-artisan-accoutrements
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RobinK
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Post by RobinK on Nov 3, 2014 13:57:07 GMT -6
I do not really care for all the drama which has ensued on various fora. Although it does make for some interesting reading with regards to the character of these fora. But in reality, fora - especially the big ones - foster fanboydom. Add to that some anti-establishment stance ("stuff concocted by a lone guy in a bathtub somewhere in the middle of nowhere must beat quality controlled and health risk tested products because lone guy") and you have a recipe for disaster. I know two makers of shaving products personally. You may or may not believe me that it is practically impossible for the aforementioned one guy to design a product whose quality and performance match, let alone surpass, that of professionally made products.
It really should be quite simple, though: any company resorting to illegal marketing and sales practices deserves a quick but very painful death.
As for these particular shaving products themselves, well, they work, but the scents are not only amateurishly made and quite off-putting, they also indicate the use of cheap (as in "of possibly Chinese origin with all the health risks that entails") fragrance compounds.
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Post by fram773 on Nov 3, 2014 14:15:28 GMT -6
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RobinK
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Post by RobinK on Nov 3, 2014 14:54:58 GMT -6
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Post by fram773 on Nov 3, 2014 15:05:37 GMT -6
Thanks, very interesting. Especially about the ingredients not being what it says they are. So if I were to get a European artisan shaving soap such as MdC or Le Pere Lucien I would be assured it has the correctly labeled ingredients?
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RobinK
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Post by RobinK on Nov 3, 2014 15:28:00 GMT -6
As always, there is no guarantee. But these specific products undergo rigorous testing indeed. This is why there are so few EU artisan products (cf also EC regulation No 1223/2009).
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RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Nov 3, 2014 20:20:57 GMT -6
Fram - for some reason the links on proboards are not working out. A blank space comes out. FYI This is an interesting story. And BeBerlin, this is very useful info regarding the ingredients and testing etc. I know that here in Canada that Health Canada does not concern themselves much with ingredients in cosmetics or with 'neutraceuticals', non pharmacological designed drugs. Anything goes and we have had some pretty scary products in the guise of herbal medications. I can't imagine what sort of crap ends up in soaps and other cosmetics here. This whole idea is really worth thinking about. Thnx folks
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RobinK
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Post by RobinK on Nov 4, 2014 0:30:27 GMT -6
Thank you, RocketMan. Personally, I find the shilling aspect far more disturbing. The massive and euphoric feedback these products received across basically every social network should have made anyone suspicious from the outset. Friends of mine tested them, and they were less than overwhelmed. And that is never a good sign.
Shilling, by the way, is illegal under many jurisdictions and can carry severe penalties. I have always found it odd that these producers, along with their products, typically do not get a permanent ban in social networks. Also, there were far too many, "yeah, all right, he probably should apologise, but I don't care, the products are good" responses. There should be a zero tolerance for this sort of illegal behaviour in place. It muddies the water, and puts honest manufacturers and vendors at a disadvantage.
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RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Nov 5, 2014 13:05:29 GMT -6
So by saying shilling Robin, I'm not clear what you mean in terms of activities folks are doing. Are they making fake forum names and posting fake reviews or??? I see certainly in some of the bigger fora that people seem quite ready to be led down the garden path and be seen to be clever or whatever it is they get benefit from.
The whole online mob mentality thing really seems to snowball people's thinking making it easy for vendors/sellers to sway opinion. Is this shilling though or buyer beware?? I think Microsoft has probably many examples of themselves blatantly stating misinformation about their products online. Is it different on the internet?
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ShadowsDad
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Post by ShadowsDad on Nov 5, 2014 16:26:36 GMT -6
RM, what he did was underhanded, immoral, and abusive. It makes no difference if others are also doing it. A preponderance of similar activities by others doesn't justify the behavior.
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RobinK
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Post by RobinK on Nov 6, 2014 11:08:50 GMT -6
I think you will find everything you need to know about shilling in this article. The people behind Hot To Grow A Moustache, Petal Pusher Fancies, and probably other products pulled out all the stops, ranging from the aforementioned rewards program (there simply is no natural explanation for the number of rave reviews), massive used of social networks to the now removed interviews with themselves under false guise. Personally, I find this disgusting and, as previously stated, illegal under several jurisdictions. How and why does this work at all? There are several components at work here: - "Follow the leader": Many shaving fora have "veterans" (ie typically old age pensioners, failed students, or people with a vested commercial interest - either way, people with too much time on their hands) whose opinion is taken as gospel. If you google the technical term "e-penis", you will find that there is no correlation between quality of content and general acceptance of what is said on the one hand, whereas on the other, people with a high post count are immediately believed irrespective of the quality of what they say.
- "Many reviews equals truth": With the advent of consumer reviews on the internet, people have come to believe what they read if it occurs in sufficiently large quantities. Unfortunately, this coincides with two tendencies on non-European fora. One, a strange penchant for entrepreneurs. I have learned how difficult it is for a small company to make even minuscule changes to their shaving soaps and creams. Yet here we have someone who churns out limited editions almost every month. Believe me, that is technically impossible unless you work with ready-made upstream products and cheap scents. Two, jingoism. Taking an example from a shaving niche market I feel competent to write about, Hart razors. Made in the USA. By individual craftsmen. And that is why people buy them. Never mind the fact that Germans perfected the razor making process for centuries because they learned over time that a uniform process is required to produce uniform quality. So, well, "it was made by a single guy in the US" works in these fora. Not least because of #3 below.
- "A firm anti establishment stance": During my time in the US, I found out that this is possible the biggest differentiator between Europe and the US. Many Americans have a strange mistrust in anything that comes through federal government. Or any government. Including FDA regulation. Which means that, apparently, many wet shavers find it perfectly acceptable for someone to mislabel their products "as long as they work."
Now, take this quote if you will, and put it into context, replacing "State" with "moderators of large fora who more often than you would believe have a vested commercial interest in certain products": "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
Et voilà, there you have your explanation why certain threads are immediately closed, and dissenters banned. If you think I'm being paranoid, think again. I used to be a moderator there.
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RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Nov 8, 2014 18:59:20 GMT -6
I can see this is a very passionate topic for you Robin. You make good points about how people are influenced in the selling based forums. I have certainly witnessed the channeling of opinions by moderators in some sites. At times this is clearly done either by pushing down contrary views or occasionally by banning. Humiliating and embarrassing members also seem to be popular tactics. And for me personally, I don't doubt for a second that moderators of 'large fora', or should we say 'privately run commercial fora', have vested commercial interests in products being covered. But then again, they foot the bills.
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it"
Well that is certain and how even governments operate these days - not only retailers. But the days of truth in advertising have come and gone.
It is turning into a very slippery world and the practices you describe are unfortunately entering into every realm of business, politics and life. At least in N America, and likely much of Europe and the rest of the world. Money is the primary focus for most. Integrity is rarely a consideration. Sad.
At least here at TOST we don't have agendas - at least not as a Forum. Some people choose to talk about their products here and for the most part that has worked ok. But, we sell or purposefully champion no products here - only endless yaks about SE razors and shaving!!
The notion of Buyer Beware has become more meaningful than ever. Be careful out there!! : )
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Post by trex314 on Dec 21, 2014 0:05:18 GMT -6
Anyone heard of this? Douglas "Smythe" an obviously fake name has been caught using multiple identities as well as claiming being exCIA and a veteran. Apparently some vendors are pulling his products from their stores and there has been a question of the ingredients even being what the label says. BeBerlin was right... I can't say I'm surprised though... Edit found another forum's member who posted this nice list: 1) He has been banned from several forums/group prior to all this due to his rude behaviour and flouting of vendor rules 2) He has shilled his own product under several different names 3) He conned his customers in thinking PPF was run by a separate individual when it was him all along 4) He conducted 'interviews' with the PPF owner, when it was just him interviewing himself pretending to be two people 5) questions have ben raised in regards to his soap ingredients and FDA status, which he has never cleared up leaving customers with doubts 6) He lied about being a veteran so he could have exclusive access to a veterans forum to shill his product to them under false pretences. 7) He attempted to sabotage Stirling soaps 8) created a smear campaign against Maggards on reddit 9) tried deleting evidence of his crimes when people called him out. some folks manged to screenshot stuff before he got rid of them. [ [ ]Get you facts straight rather than perpetuate the conjecture and stories. Where is there proof of a maggard and reddit smear campaign??? If anything that sounds more like projection, they seem to be the smearers. They were both promoted by htgam and even represented on the moustache n blade show. I wanna see proof otherwise this is libel. As for claiming to be a veteran in order to shill: m.imgur.com/a/jJG4tAs for tryiing to takedown Stirling? This is the craziest of allegations yet. Check out this: m.imgur.com/a/b5dEH also, PPF was run by separate artisan soapmaker Francis, fact.Before you go bashing someone all over the internet go to the source first before simply relying on the echo chambers for your intel. Please share these links folks!
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RobinK
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Post by RobinK on Dec 21, 2014 8:01:48 GMT -6
And a warm welcome to you, too. How peculiar that your first post would be an attempt at staging a viral campaign. But while you are at it, could you possibly prove that PPF was run one Francis? Thank you!
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Post by Thomas Paine on Dec 21, 2014 13:45:01 GMT -6
And a warm welcome to you, too. How peculiar that your first post would be an attempt at staging a viral campaign. But while you are at it, could you possibly prove that PPF was run one Francis? Thank you! Simply contact her rather than assume the worst. Can you prove, really prove otherwise other than build weak theories off of conjecture? As for trying to go viral, i have to laugh. Anytime someones post anything outside of you smear campaign they get attacked, seems rather suspect. If you have such a solid case why have so many things stated been proven false? Why make up stuff if so many facts exist? I say reach out to the company and at the very least hear that side.
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