RobinK
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Post by RobinK on Apr 6, 2013 15:55:03 GMT -6
I've never used any chinese badgers so I don't know, but the various Simpsons and Rooneys I have and use hold far too much water, so do my synthetics. So for me at least, water holding ability isn't high on my list of desirable attributes for anything but a sponge or a chamois. After loading my soap I don't want froth, I want a paste, so too much water is a bad thing for me. Restricting the water makes it much easier for me to produce the ultralather that I make and demand for every shave. As you can imagine, for me, synthetics are the worst since they hold so much water and release it so freely, but I can use them, and I've learned to use badgers, but the best for me are the boars. I've also actually learned to like all 3 bristle types though. They bring their own unique qualities to the shave and helps shaving remain interesting and varied. I wonder what "too much water" is. My shaving routine goes like this: - Fill bowl with hot water, dip brush in it, soak soap (skip when using creams), soak brush in bowl.
- Shower.
- Empty bowl, pour excess water from soap into bowl, flick brush dry, load brush with soap. If required, add a few drops of hot water, keep loading brush.
- Once brush is loaded with proto lather, switch to bowl, build lather.
I enjoy a good shave, but I simply couldn't be arsed with toying around with a brush. For me, it has to work, and that's it. Anything but silver tip badger won't do that. What silver tip badger will do, though, is make the process described above efficient and repeatable. Which is what I expect from a brush. If you are looking for other qualities in a brush, silver tip badger clearly isn't for you. Which is great. More diversity means more room to experiment.
Same reason why I have been experimenting with SE razors, by the way. I am looking for repeatable efficiency. So far, I only have two GEMs, but after a few shaves with Ted Pella blades and a little experimenting with chromium oxide and a real strop, they have outperformed any DE I have ever shave with. I am still waiting for a Henckels Rapide and Wotan, as well as a few Ever Readies and three CV Heljestrands and a bunch of blades. If they should outperform my cut-throat razors (and they might), I'll switch to SEs. Because one of the things I've never been comfortable with is Stockholm Syndrome.
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ShadowsDad
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"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
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Post by ShadowsDad on Apr 6, 2013 21:11:59 GMT -6
Too much water makes it difficult, if not impossible, to face lather and produce an ultralather. Plus it makes a mess with froth from the excess water flying out of the knot. To get rid of it takes me far more than a shake, and once the fibers of a synthetic are soaked it's simply too late IMO. I can shake al I want and they hold too much even with swinging the brush to allow centrifical force to expel the water. I give up and simply take it to the microfiber towel to have it soak up the water from the knot. A real PITA.
:-) That would be too much water.
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RobinK
Lather Catcher
Posts: 505
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Post by RobinK on Apr 7, 2013 1:52:56 GMT -6
I know the effect from older synthetic brushes. I have not seen it (to an effect that would render the brush nigh useless) with modern Mühle or Black synthetics. A high quality(!) badger will not hold "too much water". Just enough to slowly release it while building proto lather. Better than any other brush. If I had a video camera, I'd show you. And a flick of the wrist is all it takes to shake out the excess water. Bit of background: Three friends and I (a) owned about 25 brushes amongst ourselves, and (b)got access to another 35 exhibition pieces a little while back. We decided to do a little swapping around, and ended up with a very small list of high end brushes worth their money. The Thäter 26mm two band with octagonal handle was #1 for everyone. A Rooney about twice as expensive came second. Then more Thäters and Shavemacs. Plisson, Simpson, New Forest, Frank's Shaving etc didn't make it into the top ten for various reasons; the former two based on price and performance, the latter based mainly on performance compared to Thäter and Shavemac. We then decided that we had seen enough and stopped testing other brushes. Until someone manages to rip off the production processes at Thäter or Shavemac, we don't believe there is much use testing anything else. After all, a well maintained quality badger brush will easily last 20 years or more. Provided you use brushing, not circular motions, lest you break the tips off the hairs. And that's me stepping of the proverbial soap box now.
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RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Apr 7, 2013 12:04:37 GMT -6
BeBerlin - your comment about 'brushing versus circular' movements. I am not sure what's up with that. If I make soap in a bowl I will apply the cream in brushing strokes, but for a face made application - which does have its fans - circular strokes are necessary. Can you comment on this? Do you feel a brush should only 'paint' on a whipped soap?
It is great to read this thread. There are very personal preferences around this topic and it comes out when people talk about it. I have only had minimal experience with different types of brushes and just do what seems to work for me. reading here I have already learned a few things! Thnx!
Note: the term proto-lather is great. For me it gives a definition and term to allow me to think about the loaded soap prior to building lather.
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RobinK
Lather Catcher
Posts: 505
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Post by RobinK on Apr 7, 2013 12:33:25 GMT -6
There are a few common misconceptions about badger brushes. - Badger (or any other hair like substance) should not be immersed in hot water. It is primarily composed of protein which will denaturate if heated. Don't believe my? Try cooking your hand.
- Mushing, or any other application of pressure, will only load the body of the brush with soap. It will not produce lather. Instead, it will make that soap hard to remove. Which, again, will lead to Trichoptilosis (better known as split ends). The reason this method is still recommended is because some people use low-quality badger brushes whose soft bristles will not allow for proper loading.
- Proper in this context means no pressure, no swirling motions, just brushing strokes across the surface of the soap. The preferably transfer the brush that is loaded with proto-lather, to a sufficiently wide lathering bowl, lather, apply to face in strokes.
I had a Mühle and two Simpson brushes that I gave away eventually because they were too floppy. One of the main points of shaving lather is to remove oil from the beard, which otherwise offers the same resistance to cutting like copper wire of the same diameter. Now, more bristles means more surface to get in contact with the beard. Therefore, many fine hairs are better than less. Which is why a two band badger with uncut tips offers an optimum mixture of backbone and brush surface (in certain circles referred to as "tons of backbone" and "gel like feeling"). It took us a good while, and interviews with brushmakers, to find that out. Not all of it is intuitive, but I believe the above to be correct. If your method still works for you, that's great. But if you can, try using a high quality brush one day for comparison if you can. It will make a major difference, not just in comfort, but also in support of a successful shave.
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RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Apr 7, 2013 13:30:31 GMT -6
You do make owning a quality brush sound desirable. I have always wanted to step it up but have shied away from the higher prices - particularly since it is difficult to make a decision from the many, many brush products out there. My best brush is a Crabtree & Evelyn BBB - it was not very expensive - but it is too soft for me and just flip flops around. Perhaps this is why I go to my stiff boars. I have been nervous to drop a couple of hundred dollars on something that I cannot return for refund if I don't like it at all.
The Thater brush you are talking about - it comes in a fan or bulb shape. What meaningful differences if any are there between these two shapes?
Just a note on the oil on the beard. The problem here is that the oil protects the hair shaft from water absorption which would lead to a nice plump, hydrated hair. It is the plump, water filled hair that is easier to cut as it expands as much as %40. It is sort of like a balloon - when it is blown up very large, the lightest touch with a blade will pop the balloon. When it is barely filled, a cutting motion and extra energy are required. The oil can be removed by pre-prepping with a good facial wash with a non-coating soap such as glycerin. So, the brush is not necessarily an important tool for removing the oil unless the pre-shave preparation is skipped.
Us guys with crappy brushes have to learn these things!! : )
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RobinK
Lather Catcher
Posts: 505
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Post by RobinK on Apr 7, 2013 14:08:15 GMT -6
I like the brushes I use. Yes, they were a substantial investment, but then again, I won't need to buy any others probably for the rest of my life. Another problem solved.
Yes, the brush market has become quite big. However, and in my opinion, there are just three types of brushes: mostly dysfunctional, working, outstanding. I've come across very few of the latter. I'd like to add that I am a fan of artisan products, which rules out everything that comes directly from China. Also, I'm prejudiced against misleading advertising, and that includes certain brush makers who make wild claims about the provenance of their badger hairs. It has been coming from China exclusively for many years. That said, prices will rise shortly, and sharply.
Would I recommend a Thäter to you? I probably would. They are still relatively cheap in the US, their performance is beyond reproach, and the craftsmanship is typically flawless. Personally, I prefer the fan shaped one, albeit for no particular reason. I think it looks better, that's all.
Is it worth the price it fetches? A friend of mind recently published the following text (replace razor with brush, the same logic applies) discussing price, value, and worth: The economic value of a brush is hard to determine, indeed. Any plebeian US$50 brush will allow you to produce lather consistently, and transfer it to your face in a functional manner. Personally, I do not mind spending another US$100 for a brush that is bigger, has a much more functional handle, makes lathering easier, and ultimately is more pleasurable to use (lots of backbone and a gel like feeling on the skin, as they say).
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Post by razorx on Apr 7, 2013 14:24:30 GMT -6
A really helpful informative thread.
I've only owned one "quality brush" a Simpson Eagle G2 I quickly sold it because I knew I didn't like the handle enough for it to be considered a keeper and because I realized it would be better to wait until I learned more about brushes and better understand their proper use and care as well as what my preferences might be.
I'm using my inexpensive brushes as lab rats for testing purposes.
A few minutes ago I tried loading my Omerga 11047 by using easy no pressure brushing motions rather than my typical swirling technique,takes a little more time but works well enough.The 3.5" ( 8.9 cm ) inside diameter DirtyBird shaving mug I use has a good bit of surface area available to make the process a little easier.
I found that painting ( rather than swirling ) the lather onto my beard was best done with WTG and XTG strokes.
A Question:If the brush is a high quality Synthetic I would assume not using pressure is still a good idea,but is it detrimental to load a synthetic brush or apply lather with it utilizing the swirling motions that should not be employed when using a quality badger brush ?
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RobinK
Lather Catcher
Posts: 505
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Post by RobinK on Apr 7, 2013 14:33:19 GMT -6
A Question:If the brush is a high quality Synthetic I would assume not using pressure is still a good idea,but is it detrimental to load a synthetic brush or apply lather with it utilizing the swirling motions that should not be employed when using a quality badger brush ? I don't see how synthetic fibres would split, so swirling motions shouldn't be a problem at all. Probably the same for badger brushes whose tips have been cut into shape (Thäter brushes have uncut tips, which makes the production process more labour intensive). As an aside, since badger hair isn't that dissimilar to human hair, I shampoo and condition my brushes once in a while. If you find that soap residue has got stuck in your brush over time (or the handle has become sticky), a cheap supersonic cleaner with a drop of hair shampoo works wonders.
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RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Apr 7, 2013 19:10:22 GMT -6
I apologize to the poster for aiding and abetting this piracy of your thread!! Back to the boar.
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ShadowsDad
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None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
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Post by ShadowsDad on Apr 7, 2013 22:08:32 GMT -6
YMMV
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