exapno
Shave Master
Posts: 108
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Post by exapno on Jul 13, 2014 17:13:50 GMT -6
Forgive me if this has been reported before but I just stumbled on quite a nice Rolls Razor website here rollsrazor.altervista.org/comefatto.phpIt's in Italian so Google Chrome is a good option for viewing it.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 13, 2014 22:54:28 GMT -6
Dang! Would happen to be in Italian!
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 15, 2014 0:17:44 GMT -6
Tonights shave was just short of a BBS (I missed a spot under my chin for a final pass) and these great shaves are coming much easier than the first BBSs I got with the razor. Maybe I'm to the point where I can distinguish between a freshly diamond stropped blade (followed by FeOx- always) and one that has a few shaves on it. Maybe. I'll find out since I stropped it again on the diamond tonight. 50 back and forth strokes on diamond and 50 on FeOx.
I'll be able to shave again on Wednesday. I find 36 - 48 hours of growth to be about right with this razor.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 26, 2014 12:30:12 GMT -6
OK, so a few updates are in order. You'll understand why I write "a few updates" in just a minute.
Starting somewhere near shave 16 the shave began going downhill, and by shave 18 it was quite clear that stropping alone wasn't going to make it a shave ready blade anymore. In fact, shave #18 was completed with a disposable blade razor. I've been shaving with one while figuring out my next move with the Rolls.
This is the plan, yet to be implemented. BTW, IMO, it's the best reason I can think of to have spare blades. That is, one waiting to be made shave ready, or ready and waiting for the working blade to require honing. Honing is where I'm at with the present unusable blade.
Marcus and I have discussed it and the plan is to hone the blade using the Rolls hone, but NOT using the Rolls mechanism. Using an oiled hone the plan is to hone it 40 stokes, sharp edge leading, little to no pressure (the less pressure the sharper the edge), push away, flip it over and pull to complete one stroke. The blade shape (wedge, with thick spine) becomes the jig that produces the right angle for the cutting edge. The blade should have a "suction" to the hone when it's been done correctly.
Taken from The Straight Razor Shave by Chris Moss: Now for the details. How do you know when enough is enough? This is hard for the beginner, and the usual mistake is to hone too much. You might think that the more strokes the razor makes on the hone, the sharper it will get. Well, it is true, but only up to a point. Steel is a ductile metal, and the stroking of the hone not only abrades some of it, but it also gradually works some of it out into a thin fin extending beyond the point at which the plane surfaces should meet at a theoretically infinitessimal edge. If you hone to the point where this develops, it will bend and fracture very easily, giving a rough edge known as a ‘wire edge’ and this is overhoning. There isn’t a simple way to know when you have done enough; the best way is to hone, shave, hone and shave until it seems as good as it needs to be. Some people pluck a hair from their head and use it to draw across the edge and see if it catches and is cut, but this doesn’t translate well into shave-worthiness, as an overhoned edge will pass this test. The traditional way is to draw the edge of the blade across a wetted thumbnail. If the edge is blunt there will be little drag as the blade doesn’t sink into the nail, whereas when sharp there will be some drag. I?s true as well, that there is a special feel of the blade on the hone when it is about right - often described as ‘suction’ it is when the flat strip of metal adjacent to the edge is smooth enough to be reluctant to lift away from the hone. I?s quite subtle, unless you are using the hone with lather, and then is less reliable. An overhoned edge is said to give a gritty stop-and-start sensation when drawn across a nail. I find that I can judge fairly well when a blade is ready for a trial shave by dry shaving some of the hair on the inside of my left forearm. These hairs, which are less tough than beard hair, should fall down easily when they meet the razor’s edge, and you are judging by the amount of resistance to the razor - there should be almost none if the razor is ready to strop and try out on your face.
So using what Marcus and I planned out combined with what's found in the text, that's the plan.
After honing on the Rolls hone, 30 strokes on lapping film with the same cutting edge leading stroke, 20 on the diamond strop using the Rolls mechanism, then quite a bit of time on the FeOx strop. (Marcus would 50 strokes be about right, or should I do more? Can it be overdone?)
Wish me luck. To me this is akin to alchemy and a first for me. It should also produce a secondary cutting bevel, just like the GEM spine back blades have on them. It's also the way Marcus first honed my blades; basically anyway. This could take me some time to get right.
I have mentioned that shaving with a Rolls is not just something that one does on a whim. So have at least 2 blades to make it more convenient. For now I'm using only the one blade in the Rolls.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 26, 2014 23:02:40 GMT -6
OK, I have good news. It was easier to hone than I thought it would be. I think I even felt the "suction". The blade slid on the hone easily, but it was like it was very slightly magnetized toward the end of the honing. Hard to describe, but suction does a good job of it. I took my time; my goal was not to see any blood and to do no harm to the blade.
But I'm getting ahead of myself. The guard must be removed. Or maybe not. I removed the guard, but why can't it be honed with the guard in place and just flip it back and forth? I hope to remember to try that next time. OK, tonight the guard was removed and here I am doing the actual honing. BTW, I'm not using the Rolls mechanism. I'm doing it purely by hand with the hone removed from the jig. The blade touches the hone on the cutting edge and the spine of the blade. It automatically sets the bevel on it's own.
Lift it up, and be careful 'cause it's slippery with the honing oil. I used my Buck oil from a hunting knife sharpening kit as the honing oil. Make a stroke, flip it over and place it on the hone so as not to slap it onto it and destroy the bevel or edge. Just let it touch lightly and allow the oil to cushion it. Then hone that edge, pushing the blade away, using minimal pressure. At the end of the stroke repeat. I need to figure out a way to get a handle on the blade to make lifting, flipping, and lowering it onto the hone easier and more secure. Maybe a tiny piece of electrical tape. Anyway, 40 complete strokes were accomplished. Just take ones time. A quiet house IMO is a must. No distractions. The blade may be too dull to shave with, but it's still plenty sharp, there is no handle on it, and you're working to make it sharper. Too, the edge is very close to your fingers.
I did have visions of me looking like Lizzie Bordens father with this honing procedure.
Lizzie Borden took an axe, and gave her mother 40 whacks, When she saw what she had done She gave her father 41.
(true story, she killed 'em both with an axe)
Anyway, there was no blood letting and no damage that I know of to the blade. I tried shaving some hair from the inside of my arm with the blade after honing on the Rolls hone and it shaved easily but that's no real test. Then after sopping up the honing oil from the hone with a paper towel, I put a miniscule amount of petroleum jelly on the hone. I thought I had little enough, but even that was too much, so I used my finger as a squeegee to remove a bunch of the small amount of PJ I put on it. Tip: use much less than you think you need, you can always add a smidgeon more. Laying the lapping film (1u AlOx) on the hone and putting the far end under the tabs, I then smoothed out the film, working any air bubbles out to the edge and making sure the film was adhering to the hone. Then put a drop more honing oil on the abrasive surface of the film and spread it out with my finger and stropped for the 30 strokes (1 stroke on each side of the blade counts as one stroke). Again, using no pressure for these strokes as well. The blade wants to suck down into the film anyway. You may not think anything is happening, but compare the color of the honing oil before and after and you'll see a very slight tint to it proving metal was removed. The same goes for honing on the Rolls hone. Very little is seen as happening, except for a very light discoloration to the oil that is soaked off of it.
I put the guard back on the blade, VERY CAREFULLY (!), put some PJ on the blade to protect it and I'll finish it tomorrow. I charged a new strop with FeOx and it won't be ready to use until tomorrow. Before that though I'll strop on the .25u diamond charged strop.
Whether I was successful or not it was much easier than I thought it would be.
I wanted to shave tonight using another razor, but I think I'll wait until tomorrow and use the freshly honed blade. I am intensely curious about any possible success I had with the magic of honing. This, obviously, is key to success with the Rolls.
Oh, why did I charge another strop with FeOx? The strop I was using has a dip through the middle, running from side to side (not down the length). Just in case this was causing a problem with blade life I decided to use another strop. I want to get at least 30 shaves per honed blade if I can.
I'll report back after my shave tomorrow.
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Post by mjclark on Jul 26, 2014 23:29:39 GMT -6
Wow - this is a gripping adventure Brian! Looking forward to the shave report.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 27, 2014 11:44:02 GMT -6
Todays shave was NOT up to par. It was better than before honing, but not by much.
I figure I'll give it another 20 strokes on the Rolls hone, then complete the sharpening as above. Then another test shave.
Edit: OK I lied. I gave it another 40 strokes on the Rolls hone, then since that reset all the finer work that came after the first honing, I followed it with the same lapping film, diamond and FeOx regimen.
I'll know if it worked in a few days.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 28, 2014 22:24:04 GMT -6
Yippee! Yippee! Yippee! I can maintain and develop a shave ready edge!
Tonight's shave was a DFS, and the edge was shave ready. YIPPEE! I stropped it another 35 strokes on the FeOx afterwards. My intent is to see if the FeOx stropping and using the blade develops the edge into a better shave state.
I did consider dropping back to the lapping film, but decided against it for now. Slow moves. They seem to be working.
Marcus, comments/criticisms ? Is there something else I should try instead?
Question: Does an extended time on the lapping film develop the dreaded wire edge that I've read about and need to avoid? Where I'm going with this is, maybe more time on the lapping film a few days ago might have made the shaving edge better? Hey, I'm guessing here. This is the first time I've ever done this.
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Post by mjclark on Jul 29, 2014 1:08:42 GMT -6
This is amazing Brian! You have achieved your purpose completely and now have a fully working 21st Century Rolls system that is better than the original. 18 shaves between honings!! And it sounds like you're doing everything right. Maybe use diamond after film and before feox, but only occasionally. The film will certainly make the blade very rough if it is overhoned on it - certainly no more than 20 laps. Whether the Rolls is susceptible to wire edges depends on the steel and the bevel angle, but I suspect not. If it does, that edge will come away with pasted stropping leaving clean good steel which will take an even better edge so it's a win/win situation really. Congratulations Brian! You've done it
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Jul 30, 2014 17:35:29 GMT -6
Rainy afternoon, so I shaved early. I rejoiced too early it seems.
Todays shave was finished with the OCMM, and that's never a good sign; the blade still isn't up to snuff. I need to get it sharper.
I was considering dropping back to the lapping film and trying again. Marcus, comments? I'm using virtually no pressure on the blade, should I be using more pressure possibly? Or more strokes and the same pressure?
Would you do something different?
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Post by mjclark on Jul 31, 2014 0:57:21 GMT -6
Rolls hone x 50, lapping film x 30, diamond stropping x 20, feox stropping x100. Use oil for lubrication and no pressure. The less pressure the sharper the edge will come out.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Aug 3, 2014 14:09:30 GMT -6
I've been using a lightweight honing oil. I have some different honing oil on order and I should see it late this week. I'm waiting until then.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Aug 7, 2014 23:18:11 GMT -6
I've been fighting the blade that dulled up 2 weeks ago so this razor has been on the back burner until I got in some new honing oil. I simply couldn't get the blade sharp enough to shave with except for that one shave. Frankly it was driving me nuts (I don't have far to go anyway!) and I couldn't figure out what was going on.
After working on it today I looked closely at the blade; I have extremely fine vision, and noticed that the cutting edge wasn't right. So I got out the 10x magnifier and saw that minute pieces of the edge were missing. No wonder I couldn't get the thing sharp! Now I keep the magnifier in the shave cabinet.
So I brought a "new" honed blade out of storage, stropped it and used it tonight. A BBS. Stropped it after the shave and the edge looks good @ 10x.
I'm having fun learning so I intend to get some stones to bring the bad blade back into shape. First though, my mentor tells me that I need to destroy the edge further (to get back into good metal). I never intended to ever buy stones.
I'm learning though.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Aug 17, 2014 15:15:31 GMT -6
OK, to bring this up to date...
I looked into getting my own stones and such and in researching and pricing them out I found the "Scary Sharp" system. Basically it uses wet or dry paper on "float glass" (very flat!) in a progression from coarse to sharp to rapidly produce a sharp edge. Of course we want to go beyond merely scary sharp to shaving sharp.
I already have some of the lapping films. Today I ordered abrasive paper from 800grit through 5000 grit. The Rolls hone is about 6k Marcus tells me, so that will be part of the progression. 3u lapping film is 8k and that will be where the secondary bevel will begin to be made IMO, unless Marcus suggests something different. The lapping film progression will be next to 1u then .3u, then a move to stropping.
I think this is too cool... I have a cheap 10x loupe and I looked at the cutting edge through it with reflected light. I could actually see the secondary bevel because it required a slight angle change to get it to reflect light. Too, It can be seen to be quite a bit smoother (mirror like) than the primary bevel. I have a 20x B&L 3 lens pocket magnifier on order to better examine the shaving edge.
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Post by mjclark on Aug 17, 2014 15:37:37 GMT -6
Superb! That sounds like a great honing progression. A lot of people shy away from honing because it is often presented as some kind of obscure dark art, but as you are discovering it is really a compelling journey which rewards you with the kind of amazing shaves which can't be had any other way.
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