SharpSpine
Master Shaver
My Flavor Sabre
Posts: 1,151
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Post by SharpSpine on Apr 28, 2013 21:12:47 GMT -6
Lather is the combination in different ratios of 3 ingredients; soap or cream, water, & air. How you choose to alter the ratios of these 3 components is all personal preference but please allow me to propose a few things to you.
Air is not really all that important to a good lather. But it is extremely important for all those insane lather photos that you can see in different threads, usually elsewhere.
Water (IMHO) is just the 2nd most important component of lather. If it was the most important then we'd all really be saving money in this hobby by only shaving with water. Instead of me showing off my MdC in my SOTD pictures I'd be including a bottle of Fiji or Voss water. This is where you can control the thinner or thicker lather that people talk about. Some may think of a thicker & drier lather as having more cushion but I disagree. I believe cushion to be an inherent property of the soap that can be destroyed by too much water but isn't dependent solely on water content.
Soap, now this is where it's at. This is why we spend even the slightest bit, or more insane amounts, of money on soap. The soap is what contains the goodies for our lather. The ingredients of each soap will either contribute to, or take away from, the characteristics we look for such as slickness, cushion, latherability, and post-shave skincare.
With the above laid out here is how I go about making my lather. I want my lather to be primarily soap solids with just enough water to keep it from drying out and be slick as all get out. I want as little air as possible. If I'm seeing bubbles then I'm not happy. I also don't use enough water to take the lather to the "exploding" stage. This exploding stage is also where the air component starts to increase which is another reason why I want to stay below this threshold. As BrianK said above my beard will determine the ultimate thickness of the lather; first pass thickest which each subsequent pass thinner. All passes involve dense, creamy lather that is super slick and provides as much as possible of the goodies from the soap in the lather.
So unless we're all about to go buy some Voss water to start lathering with I say use the soap you bought and get the most out of it each and every shave. Your face & neck will thank you for it.
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Post by HoosierTrooper on Apr 29, 2013 4:50:12 GMT -6
As an amateur tribologist, for those that don't want to take the time to Google the term it is someone who studies friction and lubrication of moving surfaces (tribology), most commonly in internal combustion engines, I like to compare the properties of lather to motor oil. Motor oil is engineered to be as thin as possible to provide an adequate layer of protection between two surfaces without being so thick that it adversely affects the efficiency of the engine. That's why all modern engine manufacturers, with the exception of a few extremely high performance engines, recommend using relatively light oils such as 5W30 and even 5W20, and not thick oils like 10W40 or 20W50.
I don't think "cushion" is a separate quality of lather, rather, it's one part of it's lubrication properties.If the lather is too thick it seems to me it would adversely affect the ability of the blade to be in as close as contact to the skin as possible for a close shave, and, if it's too thin then you run the risk of too much friction which could lead to irritation. The key is finding the right consistency for each persons face and trying to replicate that. I've found that I like to stay on the thinner side.
Or, maybe comparing the function of lather to motor oil is just so much bull hooey!
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Apr 29, 2013 12:24:42 GMT -6
Well, no Tom, I think it's a very good analogy, that why I mentioned film strength. There are differences though. Where in an engine you have bearings that are basically 2 round surfaces gliding over each other on a film of lube, shaving has an ultra sharp edge intended to glide over one surface while slicing another.
Whatever the theory, it must take into account folks like me who make the worst possible lather (if the thick is inefficient theory is to hold) and get a BBS every day. To give you ammo, I like super aggressive razors. Maybe that's what's required for me to cut through the heavily viscous lather I prefer. But film strength is also in play to protect my skin.
In the end it's all YMMV. There are many ways to get a great shave.
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Post by HoosierTrooper on Apr 29, 2013 17:13:24 GMT -6
I was thinking more along the lines of sliding lubrication between the pistons and cylinder walls, which I think is similar to the conditions of a blade sliding on the skin. But,I guess that the actual thickness of the layer of lather, whether it is "thick" or "thin", is still very thin. One reason I prefer a thinner lather is because of the extra water that helps with lubrication and hydration of the whiskers.
I don't use a straight razor, but from what I've read straight shavers seem to prefer thinner lather so I kind of think that would also work for SE razors.
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Post by InfernoOrangeSS on Apr 29, 2013 17:15:45 GMT -6
Very good point, HT! The few times I have used my straight, I always wanted a thinner layer of shave cream/soap. Maybe it's just me and I'm a novice at straight shaving, though.
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SharpSpine
Master Shaver
My Flavor Sabre
Posts: 1,151
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Post by SharpSpine on Apr 29, 2013 21:40:06 GMT -6
Do y'all face lather this thin lather? Is it bubbly too? I'd like to see a picture of a thin lather that you enjoy shaving with. Thanks.
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RobinK
Lather Catcher
Posts: 505
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Post by RobinK on Apr 29, 2013 22:37:54 GMT -6
I do not face lather, because my Thäter brushes wouldn't appreciate it (uncut tips can break if you apply too much pressure and swirling motions). Bubbles are always wrong, though. The idea of lathering is to get an emulsion that has ultra fine bubbles. Like the stuff an oil cream bath produces in a bathtub.
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SharpSpine
Master Shaver
My Flavor Sabre
Posts: 1,151
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Post by SharpSpine on Apr 30, 2013 9:23:13 GMT -6
I do not face lather, because my Thäter brushes wouldn't appreciate it (uncut tips can break if you apply too much pressure and swirling motions). Bubbles are always wrong, though. The idea of lathering is to get an emulsion that has ultra fine bubbles. Like the stuff an oil cream bath produces in a bathtub. So you really think a bowl is that much less friction to make a difference? I apparently abused a Thater recently then.
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RobinK
Lather Catcher
Posts: 505
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Post by RobinK on Apr 30, 2013 11:06:55 GMT -6
I use brush strokes in the bowl as well.
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ShadowsDad
Gem Star
None boring shaver!!
"It's not the bow, it's the Indian"
Posts: 4,534
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Post by ShadowsDad on Apr 30, 2013 22:38:32 GMT -6
Well thanks for that info. I know I don't want a Thater if using it normally will hurt it. I certainly don't need a brush that's made so substandard that normal use damages it.
None of my other brushes with uncut hairs will break (and haven't) with simple normal use.
Too, I've seen too many older brushes with uncut hair from other manufacturers that are undamaged by normal use. You'd think Thater would wise up and make a proper brush. What's up with that!?
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Post by wchnu on May 1, 2013 1:26:35 GMT -6
This is a normal lather for me. In this picture I am using modern Williams. Attachments:
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RobinK
Lather Catcher
Posts: 505
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Post by RobinK on May 1, 2013 4:52:42 GMT -6
Well thanks for that info. I know I don't want a Thater if using it normally will hurt it. I certainly don't need a brush that's made so substandard that normal use damages it. None of my other brushes with uncut hairs will break (and haven't) with simple normal use. Too, I've seen too many older brushes with uncut hair from other manufacturers that are undamaged by normal use. You'd think Thater would wise up and make a proper brush. What's up with that!? Ah, yes. An interesting take. Maybe I did not make myself sufficiently clear. Let us try this again. - Badger hair consists of a protein like human hair. Heating it above 40° will damage it like it will damage your hair.
- Tips of hair are prone to breaking if you put them under stress. Ask any woman about spliss. The finer the hair, the more prone it is to splitting.
- Any high quality brush will last 20 years or more if properly cared for. Proper care being what any woman will do to her hair: regular shampooing and conditioning. Failure to do that will inevitably result in spliss and breaking. If the normal life expectancy is 20 years, improper care will take a few years off that.
Calling a Thäter brush substandard leads me to believe that you have not used one yet. Also, Thäter have been in business for almost a century. Believe it or not, but they know how to make a proper brush. That is all that is up with that. Unlike other manufacturers (and maybe because they are German and believe in full disclosure and knowledge transfer from manufacturer to educated user), they let you know how to treat your brush properly.
You see, there were several heated debates (I am hesitant to use that word in the context of a certain light blue forum, because a proper debate requires a modicum of knowledge which, clearly, is not to be found there in general) over Thäter brushes. Some sad loser had left soap residue in his brush, clearly applied tremendous amounts of pressure when loading the brush, and left it to dry afterwards. Any high quality brush would have taken damage, but the fanboys were all over that poor brush and blamed the manufacturer. Which reminded me of 17 year olds driving daddy's AMG Mercedes and blaming Daimler for totalling it during reckless driving. It is a well known effect in forums that everyone but the user is to blame. Unfortunately, when it comes to high performance tools (ie tools whose individual parts have been taken to the limit), that is a wrong assumption in the vast majority of cases. But apparently, it makes said forum dwellers feel better. Stockholm syndrome meets corral mentality. Pitiful if you ask me, but quite common in forums.
Just for the record, what I said above applies to top-of-the-line Shavemac or Rooney brushes as well. If you think that the amount of maintenance required for any of these is too high, you had better use something plebeian. But you will miss top performance. As always in life, there is no such thing as free lather.
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norfolkdick
Master Shaver
Captain of the Razor Blades
Posts: 1,601
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Post by norfolkdick on May 1, 2013 6:03:42 GMT -6
Well thanks for that info. I know I don't want a Thater if using it normally will hurt it. I certainly don't need a brush that's made so substandard that normal use damages it. None of my other brushes with uncut hairs will break (and haven't) with simple normal use. Too, I've seen too many older brushes with uncut hair from other manufacturers that are undamaged by normal use. You'd think Thater would wise up and make a proper brush. What's up with that!? Ah, yes. An interesting take. Maybe I did not make myself sufficiently clear. Let us try this again. - Badger hair consists of a protein like human hair. Heating it above 40° will damage it like it will damage your hair.
- Tips of hair are prone to breaking if you put them under stress. Ask any woman about spliss. The finer the hair, the more prone it is to splitting.
- Any high quality brush will last 20 years or more if properly cared for. Proper care being what any woman will do to her hair: regular shampooing and conditioning. Failure to do that will inevitably result in spliss and breaking. If the normal life expectancy is 20 years, improper care will take a few years off that.
Calling a Thäter brush substandard leads me to believe that you have not used one yet. Also, Thäter have been in business for almost a century. Believe it or not, but they know how to make a proper brush. That is all that is up with that. Unlike other manufacturers (and maybe because they are German and believe in full disclosure and knowledge transfer from manufacturer to educated user), they let you know how to treat your brush properly.
You see, there were several heated debates (I am hesitant to use that word in the context of a certain light blue forum, because a proper debate requires a modicum of knowledge which, clearly, is not to be found there in general) over Thäter brushes. Some sad loser had left soap residue in his brush, clearly applied tremendous amounts of pressure when loading the brush, and left it to dry afterwards. Any high quality brush would have taken damage, but the fanboys were all over that poor brush and blamed the manufacturer. Which reminded me of 17 year olds driving daddy's AMG Mercedes and blaming Daimler for totalling it during reckless driving. It is a well known effect in forums that everyone but the user is to blame. Unfortunately, when it comes to high performance tools (ie tools whose individual parts have been taken to the limit), that is a wrong assumption in the vast majority of cases. But apparently, it makes said forum dwellers feel better. Stockholm syndrome meets corral mentality. Pitiful if you ask me, but quite common in forums.
Just for the record, what I said above applies to top-of-the-line Shavemac or Rooney brushes as well. If you think that the amount of maintenance required for any of these is too high, you had better use something plebeian. But you will miss top performance. As always in life, there is no such thing as free lather.
Greetings Robin, I am so glad I have read your views on brushes and more importantly on other peoples valid opinions. I now realise that indeed I just must be a Pleb, an uneducated coarse and vulgar member of the lower classes, one of the 'great unwashed' unworthy to use anything other than a simple five dollar boar brush (in which all of the ends are uncut) Having read your blog and the views you have of shaving forums in general I am surprised and perhaps I and others here should feel honoured that you have taken the time to address us at all. Regards Dick.
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SharpSpine
Master Shaver
My Flavor Sabre
Posts: 1,151
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Post by SharpSpine on May 1, 2013 9:20:55 GMT -6
This is a normal lather for me. In this picture I am using modern Williams. Thanks for that! That isn't much thinner than what I use already, especially for my 2nd pass and on. Was this your first pass?
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SharpSpine
Master Shaver
My Flavor Sabre
Posts: 1,151
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Post by SharpSpine on May 1, 2013 9:43:29 GMT -6
Ah, yes. An interesting take. Maybe I did not make myself sufficiently clear. Let us try this again. - Badger hair consists of a protein like human hair. Heating it above 40° will damage it like it will damage your hair.
- Tips of hair are prone to breaking if you put them under stress. Ask any woman about spliss. The finer the hair, the more prone it is to splitting.
- Any high quality brush will last 20 years or more if properly cared for. Proper care being what any woman will do to her hair: regular shampooing and conditioning. Failure to do that will inevitably result in spliss and breaking. If the normal life expectancy is 20 years, improper care will take a few years off that.
Calling a Thäter brush substandard leads me to believe that you have not used one yet. Also, Thäter have been in business for almost a century. Believe it or not, but they know how to make a proper brush. That is all that is up with that. Unlike other manufacturers (and maybe because they are German and believe in full disclosure and knowledge transfer from manufacturer to educated user), they let you know how to treat your brush properly.
You see, there were several heated debates (I am hesitant to use that word in the context of a certain light blue forum, because a proper debate requires a modicum of knowledge which, clearly, is not to be found there in general) over Thäter brushes. Some sad loser had left soap residue in his brush, clearly applied tremendous amounts of pressure when loading the brush, and left it to dry afterwards. Any high quality brush would have taken damage, but the fanboys were all over that poor brush and blamed the manufacturer. Which reminded me of 17 year olds driving daddy's AMG Mercedes and blaming Daimler for totalling it during reckless driving. It is a well known effect in forums that everyone but the user is to blame. Unfortunately, when it comes to high performance tools (ie tools whose individual parts have been taken to the limit), that is a wrong assumption in the vast majority of cases. But apparently, it makes said forum dwellers feel better. Stockholm syndrome meets corral mentality. Pitiful if you ask me, but quite common in forums.
Just for the record, what I said above applies to top-of-the-line Shavemac or Rooney brushes as well. If you think that the amount of maintenance required for any of these is too high, you had better use something plebeian. But you will miss top performance. As always in life, there is no such thing as free lather.
Well I can see here another benefit that I get from being a Cold Water Shaver. There is no shave where my brushes are exposed to 100+ temps. (I presume the 40 your mention is Celsius). As far as the splitting of hair goes, isn't that what most of us would like? It's highly sought after in boar brushes and now that we are seeing it in some badgers it is being attributed to the "gel-like" feeling that so many covet. When comparing this to human hair splits usually occur not only from physical damage but also from the growth process. These badger hairs are no longer growing so are already more hardy. Also, badger hair is not like boar and really prone to breakage. I've seen my wife do some pretty damaging things to her hair from chemical coloring to high heat from curlers, straighteners, and driers. The splits that were there remain until she has her hair cut. Due to the flexibility of a hair shaft I find it hard to believe that a split hair will break. Rather, I'd imagine that the split would just increase. Now if you're using your brush bone dry then breakage could be more likely. Also, how gentle do your think the badger was to its hair before it was harvested? I think if physical damage was that much of a concern that we couldn't face lather with a brush, then we'd probably be using something other than badger as all the badgers would be bald. I recently was fortunate enough to use a Thater 4125/2 and I will admit that it was a great brush. I did face lather it and it performed splendidly. However, I will say that I feel while the tips are certainly uncut, they are most certainly not untreated. I would propose that the tips of Thater brushes have seen much more chemical harshness/damage during production than many lifetimes of face lathering could ever equal. In the end a brush is a tool that we use and we are all free to use that tool however we see fit and in any way that brings us joy and pleasure. I don't think that my face lathering any brush harms anyone else in the process. I would like to see Thater's take on care instructions for a hammer though.
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