RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Mar 22, 2013 12:39:10 GMT -6
I am hopeful we have some people who can contribute some knowledge to sharpening up vintage wedge blades for older SE razors that utilize the 'wedgies'.
Honing - What would be good stones - coticules? carborundum? - for preparing, repairing, the wedgies?
Stropping - Is there a way to strop these up to 'suitable sharpness' for shaving once sharpened?
There are some wonderful razors out there that use wedge blades - any tips out there??
(As a single edge safety razor site, we leave discussion of straight razors to other sites, but blade maintenance knowledge is what we could use over here when it comes to sharpening and restoring!!)
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RobinK
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Post by RobinK on Mar 22, 2013 13:14:10 GMT -6
There is a thread Wedge blade honing in the old forum. I'm still waiting for mine to arrive, but apparently, they are simply broken wedge cut-throats, so to speak. The bayonet will give you the right angle (which amounts to the same as setting a double bevel on a cut-throat described in coticule.be/wedges.html). Therefore, any fast cutting stone should do to set the bevel (Norton or Naniwa Chosera 1k come to mind). The rest appears to be as much a matter of personal preference as anything else. Some people use natural hones, some synthetics. Some seem to get acceptable shaves off 8k synthetic hones, some use higher grit finishers or abrasive pastes. Keeping in mind that you are apparently looking at hard steel but also a wider blade angle (ie you will be working on less steel than if you were honing a full wedge flat on the hone), most of the tips in What hone(s), paste(s), or spray(s) do I need? should apply. There are many Carborundum hones out there. If we're talking about a cheap barber hone, I wish you good luck trying to achieve anything when working on a wedge. A fast cutting Coticule with fresh slurry should work, but as much as I like using them for hollow ground cut-throats, I wouldn't recommend using them for wedges unless you are very patient. And now, I'm anxious to see what the pros will recommend. Lots to learn for me, I'm sure.
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RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Mar 23, 2013 16:06:07 GMT -6
Thnx for the response BeBerlin - appreciated.
The SRP thread seems pretty on track for answering this question. I am going to look closely at learning to restore resharpen the earlier wedge style - either full or hollow - of safety blade. I would like to one day try to subsist on vintage resotred shaving equipment for perhaps a year. (Not until I stop working and that feels like forever, but when things slow down.) So, for now I am going to begin the process of learning to restore these old safety blades into shaveworthy shape. It has got to be doable.
I don't have the mentioned stones other than barber hones and synthetics so I have to find what I need. I might try the high-end sandpapers first.
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RobinK
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Post by RobinK on Mar 23, 2013 16:15:36 GMT -6
Just for the record, you have a private message with good news.
As for hones: Unless the steel used in SE blades was forged by Longbeards in Khazad-dûm, a 1/4/8k progression with inexpensive Nortons followed by chromium oxide on foam rubber mounted on balsa will do the trick just nicely.
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RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Apr 10, 2013 18:22:45 GMT -6
OK. So I found a little time and I gave this a good shot today and was very pleased with the results.
The razor - a recently rcvd 1902 Kampfe from France with the french lithographed rectangular box. The tin is in terrific shape. The razor itself has certainly been used. It is in great shape mechanically, but the brassing appropriate to many shaves is apparent. The two blades that come with the kit have been repeatedly sharpened as well. There is also a bit of a smile on them where they curve in towards the blade stops. It just has the feeling of a well loved and well used razor.
The set up is a bit of a throw together. It isn't something I'd be writing a long post about. I liked the suggestions above by BeBerlin and made do with what I had available. I progressed through the following stages:
1000k - Norton wet/dry black diamond paper (wet mounted on a marble slab) 2000k - Norton wet/dry black diamond paper 6000k-8000k - Belgian Coticule 8000k+ - Franz Swaty barberhone
Strop Home made cattle leather paddle strop on granite slab
I chose to do sets of repetitions progressing through the various stages.
The result? Looks good. With a loupe I can see there was lots of improvement on the edge. It does feel 'sticky' on the fingernail.
The shave? !uite satisfactory really!! I was absolutely thrilled - I had just a great experience. There is definitely room for improvement as there was indeed some tugging. These wedge blades though are different than a wafer and feel and cut more like a Str8 razor. I read a comment once by a straight shaver that a good shave comes from a series of passes - each a gradual reduction of the beard. Three passes and I was pretty as a billiard ball!
All in all - I am quite happy so far. I have a lot of work to do to improve - but that is what I was hoping for. I feel quite inspired as this is a first time I got acceptable results trying to recondition an old blade. I think I am going to become a little addicted to this notion of reworking these old machines.
I will definitely now consider a Norton 1000k/4000k - I think I will make good use of it. Plus, I need a finer finish on the final edge. Maybe some paste on a paddle strop to finish up??
That was fun!!
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RobinK
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Post by RobinK on Apr 11, 2013 6:09:55 GMT -6
Nice. One remark: If you already own a Coticule, you can forget all other hones except the 1k one used for quickly setting a bevel. See "The Dilucot method - A clear shot at an excellent edge". I like to keep things simple and traditional, which is why I refuse to use 20 hones plus a truckload of pastes. With a bit of experience, you can do everything with just the Coticule. A friend of mine wrote a nice article about Coticules here. And it need not even be a Coticule. A Belgian Blue Whetstone, which costs a fraction, will work, too. Unless you hone for money and therefore are under time constraints, using synthetic hones will not improve your edges in the slightest. We did a few double blind tests to verify that (and, in the same process, bust a few myths around fabled and extremely expensive brands of cut-throat razors). As for finishing, what I said above applies, too. Some mentally disturbed and/or handicapped individuals keep claiming that the use of "high grit finishing hones" and pastes is mandatory for an excellent edge. That is complete and utter bollocks. A Coticule on water or a Belgian Blue with light slurry deliver basically the same results as a 12-14k finishing hone (but are able to perform bevel setting tasks like a 1-2k hone when used with heavy slurry). That said, it's always nice to have a cheap sharpening tool for refreshing edges around. You can start here. Personally, I would use a solid base and foam rubber instead of balsa. Either way, you will be looking at an investment of approx US$5. Now, I wish US Mail would finally process my lather catchers. It's all nice and dandy theorising about honing these wedge blades, but my fingers are getting itchy to actually try it.
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RocketMan
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Post by RocketMan on Apr 20, 2013 14:17:51 GMT -6
Nice. One remark: If you already own a Coticule, you can forget all other hones except the 1k one used for quickly setting a bevel. See "The Dilucot method - A clear shot at an excellent edge". I like to keep things simple and traditional, which is why I refuse to use 20 hones plus a truckload of pastes. With a bit of experience, you can do everything with just the Coticule. A friend of mine wrote a nice article about Coticules here. And it need not even be a Coticule. A Belgian Blue Whetstone, which costs a fraction, will work, too. Unless you hone for money and therefore are under time constraints, using synthetic hones will not improve your edges in the slightest. We did a few double blind tests to verify that (and, in the same process, bust a few myths around fabled and extremely expensive brands of cut-throat razors). As for finishing, what I said above applies, too. Some mentally disturbed and/or handicapped individuals keep claiming that the use of "high grit finishing hones" and pastes is mandatory for an excellent edge. That is complete and utter bollocks. A Coticule on water or a Belgian Blue with light slurry deliver basically the same results as a 12-14k finishing hone (but are able to perform bevel setting tasks like a 1-2k hone when used with heavy slurry). That said, it's always nice to have a cheap sharpening tool for refreshing edges around. You can start here. Personally, I would use a solid base and foam rubber instead of balsa. Either way, you will be looking at an investment of approx US$5. Now, I wish US Mail would finally process my lather catchers. It's all nice and dandy theorising about honing these wedge blades, but my fingers are getting itchy to actually try it. I have found your comments very helpful! I have been working on the using the coticule I have to provide me with enough tool to get the job done. I have been trying the dilucot method with more success than the unicot trick with black tape. It is nice to see you get the job done with your recent arrivals: Sharpening up a Sondag for Heljestrand razorWotan razor sharpened with coticuleI keep working at this and my edges aren't too bad really. More in the satisfactory range at this point. Which I am ok with. This opens up a lot of possibilities with other wedge blade SE shavers. And .... congrats on your new arrivals! I hope they bring you lots of shaving experiences. I need to review using a paddle strop properly. My stropping is pretty weak at this point. I like the idea of using a paste on a paddle - either bamboo or a leather paddle or... I could use a more forgiving edge at the final point of finishing.
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RobinK
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Post by RobinK on Apr 20, 2013 16:44:16 GMT -6
Thank you, Wayne. I have now been playing with a Kampfe Bros, Henckels and Heljestrand (I've got those 3 boxes for you still sitting on my desk, by the way) blades. The honing extension makes honing them fool proof. While previous posters (and some rather deluded individuals in a light blue cut-throat forum) claimed that the Heljestrand blades were made of "extremely hard steel", that is not my experience. All my blades took an edge quite easily.
As for pastes, I found that ferric or chromium oxide work well. .5µm diamond spray makes them quite aggressive (like a new Pella blade).
Building your own pasted strop is quite straightforward. People have used balsa wood glued to a flat surface with success. Personally, I use foam rubber glued to a piece of balsa wood. Either way, I would strongly recommend using a flat surface, because sharpening on a concave surface (read: hanging strop) will round the edge fairly quickly. Using a flat surface, you should be able to maintain an edge established with a hone for a very long time.
The Allegro seems to do the same. I deliberately blunted a shave ready edge a little (by backhoning), then tried to get it back to shaving sharp with no success. Apparently, it is a maintenance tool only. That said, does anyone know what the two black sides are exactly?
While I am still waiting for a Rapide (USPS is slow), I can tell you that the Wotan is quite a bit of fun. While I did not quite expect it to work that well, I find that is provides even closer, and smoother, shaves than my GEMs with a Pella blade. Which makes it a nice alternative to a DE when I have to get up and shave at 04:30am.
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Post by IschiaPP on May 23, 2015 11:07:53 GMT -6
I've two old SE aka "Lather Catcher": one Zwillingwerk Wotan by J.A. Henkels, one C.V. Heljestrand. With ther support is easy to hone these wedges ... but I prefer full hollow. So I'm watching these. Pics and details by SellerI think that hole in the spine fit a tool to hone, but there is nothing in pics or details ... and I did never read something about it. Any info or idea?!
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Post by PJGH on May 23, 2015 12:01:37 GMT -6
On the Darwin (see BeBerlin's recent SOTD), that hole has a screw in it for adjustment of blade gap.
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Post by IschiaPP on May 23, 2015 12:08:29 GMT -6
Ok, but about honing?
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ShadowsDad
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Post by ShadowsDad on May 23, 2015 12:26:45 GMT -6
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Post by IschiaPP on May 23, 2015 13:12:07 GMT -6
I don't see why the same technique that I used for the Rolls razor wouldn't work for other wedge blades ... Yes, of course, the progression is classic. BUT, the Rolls has his proper tool to hold the blade and hone it. What fit this??
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ShadowsDad
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Post by ShadowsDad on May 23, 2015 15:17:57 GMT -6
You need to read the thread. It's all explained in great detail.
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spidey9
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Post by spidey9 on May 23, 2015 17:18:51 GMT -6
I don't have answers, but I'd like to thank Pierpaolo for bumping this thread, as it is of great interest to me. Marcus was nice enough to hone a few wedge blades for me for my Kampfe razor, but sending blades halfway around the world to be sharpened is a little unwieldy, plus it's a skill I'd like to learn. There is a huge amount of resources available regarding blade honing, but nearly all of it is directed at straight razors. Brian's thread regarding Rolls blades is most helpful, especially since he started with about the same knowledge level as me (very little). I don't want to spend a fortune so I've put together a chunk of marble tile and some lapping film. I believe this is called the "scary sharp" method. Does anyone know of a video on honing Kampfe style wedge blades? (I'm a visual sort.) Am I correct in that the blade is laid right on the hone (lapping paper) with the edge and spine making contact (no holder of any sort), and then simply pushed down the hone, flipped over and pushed back? All this is really new to me. --Bob
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